Final Conflict Reserve Fighters

[cumthedestroyer]

source: http://www.puroresupower.com/

"Regarding who will end up as the other "reserve" fighter besides Hidehiko Yoshida for the 8/28 Saitama show, Sakakibara indicated that either Yuki Kondo or Kazuhiro Nakamura might be eligible - but no official announcement or confirmation."

For real? 1 of 3 Japanese losers who pose no actual possibility of winning the GP? What about Vovchanchyn? and all the other worthy challengers in this division? it's nice that Pride has a tournament where all their countrymen get defeated in the first 2 rounds, despite their intense nationalism, it's more than i imagine the UFC would stand for. The sense for who's an actual conteder is definitely being put second to who's Japanese in this instance because there is no 205lb Japanese fighter that belongs fighting in this reserve match. Yoshida wouldn't have been given even a portion of the split decision he lost to Silva if it hadn't been for sympathetic judging from home. a reserve match for someone being given such an enormous oppurtunity should feature 2 of the toughest fighters not otherwise present. Like Vovchanchyn vs Sobral, or Jackson vs Couture, or even Vovchachyn vs Noguiera, certainly not anyone Japanese.

[ilostmydog]

I guess one of the requirements for being a reserve fighter is that you have to be Japanese. Go figure. Maybe Takada will come out of retirement to be a reserve fighter. :rolleyes:

[cumthedestroyer]

and just to be extra super clear. i love the Japanese and i think Pride is a great organization. they are making history of this sport, always making the greatest living representation. but seriously **** Yoshida, he didn't do **** last fight with Silva, i dunno if Kondo has ever won a fight in Pride, and Nakamura ...it just stinks of corruption that he got as far as he did. not that Yoshida isn't probably the best of them. He should just move on tho. Start calling out Liddell or Couture or something. i think he'd probably kick both their asses.

[Jeremy]

Here are 2 MUCH better choices-

Kiyoshi Tamura
Mario Sperry

[BruceLee]

For real? 1 of 3 Japanese losers who pose no actual possibility of winning the GP? What about Vovchanchyn? and all the other worthy challengers in this division? it's nice that Pride has a tournament where all their countrymen get defeated in the first 2 rounds, despite their intense nationalism, it's more than i imagine the UFC would stand for. The sense for who's an actual conteder is definitely being put second to who's Japanese in this instance because there is no 205lb Japanese fighter that belongs fighting in this reserve match. Yoshida wouldn't have been given even a portion of the split decision he lost to Silva if it hadn't been for sympathetic judging from home. a reserve match for someone being given such an enormous oppurtunity should feature 2 of the toughest fighters not otherwise present. Like Vovchanchyn vs Sobral, or Jackson vs Couture, or even Vovchachyn vs Noguiera, certainly not anyone Japanese.

CTD, you need to calm down on this becasue this debate of a Japanese organization favoring Japanese fighters gets old.

This is no different then the constant complaints that the NBA has always kept 2-3 white players as bench/role players on a team over black players of equal or better ability.

The bottom line is that the companies look at the demographics of the audience and believe that having those demograpics represented will raise revenue and interest. The fear of these companies is that, for instance, a lack of Japanese fighters on the card will lead to the Japanese audience turning to other sports where Japanese are better represented such as J-Leauge soccer, and Baseball.

Despite it's global exposure, Pride's demographics is still mainly Japanese, so until this changes your gonna see Pride continue to promote Japanese fighters at it's events. This is one of the reasons that the LW, LHW GP's are starting since there are more Japanese fighters among the elite in these weight classes.

The bottom line is that these business tactics are not about race or nationality, it's about the Green - Money.

You're giving Yoshida short change too. The fact that Yoshida was Japanese and is a top draw put him up agaisnt the number 1 seed in the first round against Wanderlei. Given a more favorable pairing Yoshida probably (50% chance)would have at least made it to the final four.

Yoshida is probably the only one that should be an alternate. I'd hold your horses on the other alternates since nothing has been determined. Tamura - Takimoto (J vs. J) turned out to be the worst fight on the last card, so I woudln't be suprised to see Yoshida - Vochanchen or Yoshida - Rampage.

[cumthedestroyer]

nationalism is repugnant and i will lash out at it at will. your analysis that Yoshida would have made the final four given a different first round is just you having a largly unwarranted feeling of appreciation of Yoshida as a 205lb mma fighter. He hasn't won a fight against a LHW. there's nothing wrong with being opposed to his or Nakmura's inclusion in this tournament. there are simply better fighters available. i recognize that Pride is concerned with their domestic market as it is their most valuable but that's a marketting issue. i don't know what you're talking about with more Japanese fighters being of the elite in the LW and LHW classes. i don't see how anyone could rank any Japanese fighters amongst the top 10 at 205, however at LW you could probably rank at least 5 Japanese fighters (gomi, kawajiri, sudo, mishima, sakurai), which is half. Yoshida vs Vovchanchyn would be fine with me tho, i was more offended by the mention of Kondo.

[WEREWOLF]

I have to agree with C.T.D. on this one. That is a piss poor choice of alternates for the G.P.

[BruceLee]

nationalism is repugnant and i will lash out at it at will. your analysis that Yoshida would have made the final four given a different first round is just you having a largly unwarranted feeling of appreciation of Yoshida as a 205lb mma fighter. He hasn't won a fight against a LHW. there's nothing wrong with being opposed to his or Nakmura's inclusion in this tournament. there are simply better fighters available. i recognize that Pride is concerned with their domestic market as it is their most valuable but that's a marketting issue. i don't know what you're talking about with more Japanese fighters being of the elite in the LW and LHW classes. i don't see how anyone could rank any Japanese fighters amongst the top 10 at 205, however at LW you could probably rank at least 5 Japanese fighters (gomi, kawajiri, sudo, mishima, sakurai), which is half. Yoshida vs Vovchanchyn would be fine with me tho, i was more offended by the mention of Kondo.

Oh stop. Whining vociferously is going to get you nowhere. LHW was a typo, you should have figured that out by the context of the discusion. It shoudl've been LW and MW.

Do you really think the Pride executives care what some kid in New Brunswick thinks? Sammy Davis Senior summed it up best when talking to Papi (Sammy Davis Jr.). "There's a difference between what's right, what's wrong and what is." Learn to accept it.

I don't mind having one or two token Japanese fighters as long as they have established some ability to hang with the top fighters in there class and as long as they provide for an exciting fight even if they are abused like a pinata.
I prefer that, to having the Japanese get rid of the HW and LHW division and exclusivley using Japanese fighters. At least this way I still get to see the best in the World from the Eastern Block and Brazil.

You also have to understand that in Pride and in Japan, wining and losing isn't as important as trying to go against the best by giving your all. Sort of a Rocky vs. Appolo Creed, Chuck Wepner vs. Ali type thing. So it doesn't matter if they are outclassed or outmatched as long as they try. The only way they can actually lose is if they avoid fighting and act like a coward like Takada did against CroCop.

Nothing's been set in stone, only rumors. I think we'll end up seeing Yoshida vs. Rampage becuase Rampage is still under contract. They'll expect Rampage to be a cakewalk in his weakend condition and a good victory for Yoshida's record. Watch the old Rampage return (no more Christianty, etc) and destroy Yoshida, then Pride scurry to resign Rampage. Then Rampage turns them down to join the UFC.

The second alternate fight of course will involve another Japanese fighter. That's a given. Its the only way to put Japanese fighters in this event since you have 3 fights in the tourney + CroCop-Fedor. It probably will be Kondo since it appears he's quiet popular and Nakamura's been disappointing in his last two fights.

[WEREWOLF]

Pride should be more interested in ensuring exciting fights than trying any way they can to put a Japanese fighter in the final.

I mean Yoshida (twice), Kondo and Nakamura have all been beaten by Silva. Yoshida and Nakamura were beaten by Silva in this very GP! So if there is an injury and Silva makes it to the final (which he is favored to do) he will end up facing one of these alternates! How thrilling! :rolleyes:

Wouldn't Vovchanchyn or even Belfort make for more interesting alternates/fights?

[ACIDBATHBELFORT]

I think the best and fairest way would be to take the four that just got eliminated and have them fight for the alternate spot.

[BruceLee]

Pride should be more interested in ensuring exciting fights than trying any way they can to put a Japanese fighter in the final.

I mean Yoshida (twice), Kondo and Nakamura have all been beaten by Silva. Yoshida and Nakamura were beaten by Silva in this very GP! So if there is an injury and Silva makes it to the final (which he is favored to do) he will end up facing one of these alternates! How thrilling! :rolleyes:

Wouldn't Vovchanchyn or even Belfort make for more interesting alternates/fights?

I dunno about Belfort, he's been in a slump and until they know what happened to his sister, I don't think he's in any condition to be fighting.

I'd love to see Igor and I'm sure he'll be one of the alternates.

The first round losers are:
Yoshida
Rampage
Dong Sik
Dan Henderson
Yuki Kondo
Belfort
Dean Lister
Kevin Randalman

The second round losers are:
Sak
Igor
Nakamura
Lil Nog

Techincally the fairest thing to do would have the second round losers be the alternates.
But I don't want to see Nakamura again.
Sak is too injured.

Yoshida is a gimme.
I think Igor is a lock.
Then one more Japanese. It will be Kondo.
So for the final spot to face Yoshida
it has to be either
Rampage or Lil Nog.

I say Rampage since from Pride's perspective Rampage is a Nobody and this is prime time to capitalize on Rampage's downturn and pad Yoshida's record.

So Rampage vs. Yoshida
Igor vs. Kondo.

And if these Japanese are such cans as you say then there's no way they would beat Igor and Rampage so we don't have to worry about Silva facing Yoshida or Kondo again.

The chances are very slim that Arona would be too injured to fight in the finals against Silva. Arona will win the GP. He could be injured and he would still want to fight Silva.

I see nothing wrong with Rampage vs. Yoshida or Igor vs. Kondo.

I agree that it is a little not fair to bring the Japansese fighter back in but then again Team Quest, Randy and UFC had no qualms about brining Leben back 3 times in the Ultimate Fighter even though he kept getting eliminated or kicked out. It's a business, that's all there is to it.

[SilvaSurfer]

I see nothing wrong with Rampage vs. Yoshida or Igor vs. Kondo.

Igor vs Kondo already happened in the 1st round remember?

[BruceLee]

Igor vs Kondo already happened in the 1st round remember?

You're right. Good point. Hmm. Then that creates a problem.
I really want to see Yoshida vs. Rampage, but
if Kondo has to be there then I guess
Kondo vs. Lil Nog.

but that leaves Igor out
so

either
Yoshida vs. Rampage
Konda vs. Lil Nog
OR
Yoshida vs. Igor
Kondo vs. Lil Nog

[chosin]

Do you really think the Pride executives care what some kid in New Brunswick thinks? Sammy Davis Senior summed it up best when talking to Papi (Sammy Davis Jr.). "There's a difference between what's right, what's wrong and what is." Learn to accept it.

Man, what's the big deal? Obviously, Pride doesn't care what ANYBODY on this forum thinks, but that doesn't make our critiques or praise invalid.

If Pride hopes to become the vehicle that makes MMA a legitimate and respected mainstream sport worldwide, then it should care about the integrity of its product. Even in Japan, Pride and K-1 are classified as show business rather than legitimate sports.

[CatSmasher]

I mean really how many good matchups are we missing out on because pride caters so much to the japanese fighters!I guess thats the problem with pride in japan is that it is in japan where there main audience either wants to see the freak show fighters or there own.I want mma to grow as a sport as I am sure most here do but to be real honest I don't think both big groups do to good a job rigt now at helping that cause.If it's not japanese cans in pride(dont get me wrong there are good japanese fighters i don't mind seeing such as gomi,kawajiri and chonan)it's bonehead Dana"Godlike on the new ufc 54 poster"White with his one fight "not too much pressure" deals.Unless your Rich Franklin then you get like an 8 fight deal. >-(

[Cbear]

Igor? Igor got choked out in under two minutes by a kickboxer.

Yoshida took the Pride champion to a decision and did NOT get his face stomped in like every other fighter on Earth.

I have no problem with Pride using their number one ticket seller as well as tough as nails judoka in as an alternate.

[Luke]

I agree with BruceLee. Its about the money, it always has been and always will be. Its the same for Boxing and Wrestling as well. Part of the reason wrestling is worked is because wrestlers realized its easier to project long-term business when you know the outcomes in advance.

As far as valid and invalid critcisms, its all about what you want. Pride and K-1 understand what they are, and they book their product accordingly. If you want whats best for business, because ultimately these promotions must make money or they won't exist, then you might applaud them for what they do. If you consider it a sport, then they can be criticized for not providing the best fights possible, and short changing fighters who deserve better.

As a general rule, native Japanese fighters will be more popular than foreign, or "gaijin" fighters. Its been that way for decades in Pro Wrestling, and its like that now in MMA. Thats not going to change. And thats saying something because there have been some EXTREMELY popular foreigners in Japan (The Funks, Bruiser Brody, Stan Hanson). If there is a marketing genius somewhere in the world who can market guys like Rogerio Noguiera and Ricardo Arona, and make them as popular, or more popular than someone like Kazushi Sakuraba, or even Yoshida or Tamura. Then they're probably the son of Jesus Christ because I don't there is a person who can do that.

Pride books for money. If booking a match with a native Japanese fighter against someone like Wanderlei Silva will make them more money, than booking Rogerio Noguiera or Ricardo Arona against Wanderlei Silva, guess which fight they're going to book?

Personally, I don't see the point in bitching or whining about things that will never change, but to each their own. I guess we all need something to grind our axe on.

[chosin]

"I agree with BruceLee. Its about the money, it always has been and always will be."

No one ever said it wasn't about the money. I don't think that's part of the debate.

"If you consider it a sport, then they can be criticized for not providing the best fights possible, and short changing fighters who deserve better."

Good point.

"Personally, I don't see the point in bitching or whining about things that will never change, but to each their own. I guess we all need something to grind our axe on."

It's a perfectly legitimate as a fan to want the best possible fighters/match-ups, and when that doesn't happen, people naturally will express their disappointment. I don't think anyone here was whining.

[Luke]

Yeah, people probably weren't whining, but it seems that way because this topic seems to come up often. I guess I just accept it for what it is, and I don't worry about it.

[CatSmasher]

Yeah, people probably weren't whining, but it seems that way because this topic seems to come up often. I guess I just accept it for what it is, and I don't worry about it.
If we just accept things for the way they are then MMA will end up just like Boxing corrupt and often hard to watch with these long gaps between fights.Because fighters put money above all else.If groups like pride or ufc make it about the money eventually the fighters will to and we really wont see good matchups.I dont believe we are whining I believe we are concerned that this sport is headed in the wrong direction.I think that pride involving pro wrestler has not been the most positve thing for there group.With the exception of sak most other pro wrestler don't fare to well in MMA.I realize that a big part of that is because they draw money.But I beleive top calibur fighters can draw money with the right exposure.To many pro wrestling minds involved in MMA won't be a good thing in the long run if they treat this like it's pro wrestling. >-(

[cardinals_82_85]

If we just accept things for the way they are then MMA will end up just like Boxing corrupt(

I think MMA is already corrupt on its own level.

[CatSmasher]

I think MMA is already corrupt on its own level.
I agree we are in the early stages of corruption.

[Luke]

I wasn't telling anyone not to be critical, just that the criticisms are often based on what you want as a fan. Which is completely valid.

I guess when you're a smart-mark wrestling fan, you see things a little differently.;)

[WEREWOLF]

Igor? Igor got choked out in under two minutes by a kickboxer.

Yoshida took the Pride champion to a decision and did NOT get his face stomped in like every other fighter on Earth.

I have no problem with Pride using their number one ticket seller as well as tough as nails judoka in as an alternate.


What would make for a better fight?

Vovchanchyn vs. Silva/Rua/Overeem 2/Arona or

Yoshida vs. Silva 3/Rua/Overeem/Arona

With Vovchanchyn each fight has potential for huge fireworks.

With Yoshida each fight has potential to be ground out to an unsatisfying decision.

[Luke]

I can live with a Yoshida ground out if I know that there are other fights on the card that will provide fireworks. Both of the semi-final fights in the GP are going to be good. Fedor/Cro Cop is going to be exciting. I think the card will be great, even with Yoshida on it.

[BruceLee]

Sounds to me like some just want a stand up war, which is fine I guess.

There are two things going on here with the subtext.

1. Japanese fighters have no place in the GP. This is arguable. Nakamura isn't great but he's not as bad as his detractors make him out to be. Kondo has a great standup and flying knee game. And Yoshida has shown the ability to hold his own. The integrity of Pride is fine, as long as these Japanese fighters are competent. It seems that some of you are saying that Japanese fighters are worthless at the LHW level. I disagree with this because Yoshida is okay. I'm not even a big fan of him but he's not bad.

2. That somehow the integrity of Pride and the Japanese companies has to be above that of every other company on the planet. This smacks of a double standard.

I've already mentioned the NBA. Add to what's already been mentioned the rumours that the draft lottery has always been rigged. (Do a search on Patrick Ewing and the frozen envelope during the first draft lottery). The number one picks seems to always go to the city where NBA interest has waned the most. (Milwaukee this year, afer the MJ debacle and the raising of their team) Or how bout Lebron just happening to go to his hometown. The favorable calls that star players and glamour teams get. Is this integrity?

What about Major league Baseball? Corrupt commsioner Selig. Turning a blind eye towards Steroids to allow roiders to demolish the record books? Bringing in Interleague Play and destroying 80 years of tradition. Creating a system where the Yankees can buy every All Star in the league and stack their team. Where's the integrity and fairness in that?

What about the MLS (soccer) policy of limiting each team to only 3 foregin players. Doesn't this smack of Nationalism. We're not seeing the best players fielded by the best teams.

The point is all leagues and sports do this. Alot of it is in the name of business and money. Maybe some policies are more succesful than others in reaching these goals. But, to think that there are some utopic, pure pristine sport that are untainted by business and are completely unbiased and fair is naive.

I don't see any reason to hold Pride and the Japanese companies to a higher standard than any of the other leagues on this planet. It just doens't make sense to me. Sports are a business. When you get traded you quickly understand that it's not about loyalty or fairness, it's a business first, and a game second. If you want integrity play ball for fun, with no money involved, then you'll get integrity.

[ACIDBATHBELFORT]

Seed the last four and have them fight. They went the furtest, so they should be the ones rewarded. Not someone who lost in the first round.
1Nog/4Nak and 2Igor/3Saku.

[CatSmasher]

Seed the last four and have them fight. They went the furtest, so they should be the ones rewarded. Not someone who lost in the first round.
1Nog/4Nak and 2Igor/3Saku.
I agree with that except for saku.He needs to take a break for a minute.His last fight was well you know!OUCH! >-(

[ACIDBATHBELFORT]

Good point, Id put Yoshida in there then. He gave Silva a tough fight and Silva is the best. Although Id like to see Rampage get another shot. He didnt put up a good fight. So I say Yoshida.

[CatSmasher]

Yeah Rampage would be good or maybe and this is just me i'd like to see Dan Henderson. >-(

[SanLuis97]

Yeah Rampage would be good or maybe and this is just me i'd like to see Dan Henderson. >-(

No, please not Dan Henderson.

[chosin]

Sounds to me like some just want a stand up war, which is fine I guess.

There are two things going on here with the subtext.

1. Japanese fighters have no place in the GP. This is arguable. Nakamura isn't great but he's not as bad as his detractors make him out to be. Kondo has a great standup and flying knee game. And Yoshida has shown the ability to hold his own. The integrity of Pride is fine, as long as these Japanese fighters are competent. It seems that some of you are saying that Japanese fighters are worthless at the LHW level. I disagree with this because Yoshida is okay. I'm not even a big fan of him but he's not bad.

2. That somehow the integrity of Pride and the Japanese companies has to be above that of every other company on the planet. This smacks of a double standard.

I've already mentioned the NBA. Add to what's already been mentioned the rumours that the draft lottery has always been rigged. (Do a search on Patrick Ewing and the frozen envelope during the first draft lottery). The number one picks seems to always go to the city where NBA interest has waned the most. (Milwaukee this year, afer the MJ debacle and the raising of their team) Or how bout Lebron just happening to go to his hometown. The favorable calls that star players and glamour teams get. Is this integrity?

What about Major league Baseball? Corrupt commsioner Selig. Turning a blind eye towards Steroids to allow roiders to demolish the record books? Bringing in Interleague Play and destroying 80 years of tradition. Creating a system where the Yankees can buy every All Star in the league and stack their team. Where's the integrity and fairness in that?

What about the MLS (soccer) policy of limiting each team to only 3 foregin players. Doesn't this smack of Nationalism. We're not seeing the best players fielded by the best teams.

The point is all leagues and sports do this. Alot of it is in the name of business and money. Maybe some policies are more succesful than others in reaching these goals. But, to think that there are some utopic, pure pristine sport that are untainted by business and are completely unbiased and fair is naive.

I don't see any reason to hold Pride and the Japanese companies to a higher standard than any of the other leagues on this planet. It just doens't make sense to me. Sports are a business. When you get traded you quickly understand that it's not about loyalty or fairness, it's a business first, and a game second. If you want integrity play ball for fun, with no money involved, then you'll get integrity.

All and all, an excellent post. However, I do think that boxing's level of corruption and lack of integrity is much greater than NBA, MLB or NFL. At least there's some form of goverance and methods to criticize and correct problems. I believe Pride and K-1 are much closer to boxing's level of corruption. There is no oversight, no accountablility, no drug testing, and fights can be easily manipulated toward a certain outcome. And once again, in Japan, Pride and K-1 are viewed as entertainment shows rathers than a sporting event.

[cumthedestroyer]

Yoshida is ok, but he has never won a fight at LHW, so all i'm saying is anywhere but the GP. the GP should be the best fighters exclusively not no Yoon Dong Sik, Kevin Randleman, Nakamura, Yoshida, or Kondo. None of those fighters are any damn good amongst the top fighters at 205lbs and the records all show it. it's certainly better than their last HW tournament selections but it's not perfect yet. I think Noguiera and Vovchanchyn are more deserving of being featured in reserve matches than any Japanese fighters by rights of their records/careers. It's laughable that Kondo or Nakamura were even mentioned.

[BruceLee]

Yoshida is ok, but he has never won a fight at LHW, so all i'm saying is anywhere but the GP. the GP should be the best fighters exclusively not no Yoon Dong Sik, Kevin Randleman, Nakamura, Yoshida, or Kondo. None of those fighters are any damn good amongst the top fighters at 205lbs and the records all show it. it's certainly better than their last HW tournament selections but it's not perfect yet. I think Noguiera and Vovchanchyn are more deserving of being featured in reserve matches than any Japanese fighters by rights of their records/careers. It's laughable that Kondo or Nakamura were even mentioned.

Your just trying to rationalize your hatred for Yoshida. Which is fine becasue I dislike Gary Goodridge, and Takada and I'll come up with any reason to put them down.

Also you need to get your facts straight or back it up with evidence. Yoshida beat Don Frye who cut to LHW. And who has Igor beat at LHW. Using your own argument Igor shoudn't be in the GP which is Bull.

Face it you hate Yoshida in particular.

[Brazuca]

Actually I find Yoshida a good reserve fighter but want to see him fighting lil'Nog. It would be interesting to see these two guys struggling and and the winner (if **** happen) replacing someone in the final. It would be nice to see Yoshida fight without the GI but I don't think that will ever happen.

[bigjay]

Yoshida is ok, but he has never won a fight at LHW, so all i'm saying is anywhere but the GP. the GP should be the best fighters exclusively not no Yoon Dong Sik, Kevin Randleman, Nakamura, Yoshida, or Kondo. None of those fighters are any damn good amongst the top fighters at 205lbs and the records all show it. it's certainly better than their last HW tournament selections but it's not perfect yet. I think Noguiera and Vovchanchyn are more deserving of being featured in reserve matches than any Japanese fighters by rights of their records/careers. It's laughable that Kondo or Nakamura were even mentioned.


In terms of Yosh's LHW history, he's 2-2 with wins over Frye and Tamura and losses to Silva. So really he's only been beaten in LHW by Silva, who's the #1 LHW. That's the problem I have with Pride's management of Yosh, he's constantly fighting heavier weight guys so we haven't yet got a real sense of his place in the LHW division. He's avoided getting destroyed by Silva by taking him to decision not once but twice which is better than anyone else in the division can claim though.

[monkandersen]

Nog is most worthy of a reserve slot. I think any talk of Kondo, Henderson or Nakmura is ridiculous. Yoshida is acceptable. But I agree with Bigjay and would have liked to see him in more LHW fights.

[cumthedestroyer]

hold up right there Bigjay. the only 20lb fighter Yoshida has ever fought has been Silva. Hunt and Frye are over 205 and Gracie is like 185. so yes Yoshida has never won a fight as a 205lb fighter against a 205lb fighter. Don Frye if he did in fact cut to LHW, i wouldn't know cause i haven't seen the fight, is an idiot at no matter what weight he competes. Vovchanchyn has 2 KO wins at LHW going into this tournament as well as an extensive career at HW. Yoshida is simply ok. he didn't do anything Silva tho and if anyone deserves to compete in this tournament it's Noguiera who IMO could have been given the nod as easily as Shogun. can you seriously imagine someone believing Yoshida won that second fight with Silva? Do you want a fighter that is that influential over judges brains competing in a tournament with this much of mma's integrity at stake? Noguiera vs Vochanchyn reserve match. No one else is reasonable. and Nog has to rematch Shogun.

[bigjay]

hold up right there Bigjay. the only 20lb fighter Yoshida has ever fought has been Silva. Hunt and Frye are over 205 and Gracie is like 185. so yes Yoshida has never won a fight as a 205lb fighter against a 205lb fighter. Don Frye if he did in fact cut to LHW, i wouldn't know cause i haven't seen the fight, is an idiot at no matter what weight he competes. Vovchanchyn has 2 KO wins at LHW going into this tournament as well as an extensive career at HW. Yoshida is simply ok. he didn't do anything Silva tho and if anyone deserves to compete in this tournament it's Noguiera who IMO could have been given the nod as easily as Shogun. can you seriously imagine someone believing Yoshida won that second fight with Silva? Do you want a fighter that is that influential over judges brains competing in a tournament with this much of mma's integrity at stake? Noguiera vs Vochanchyn reserve match. No one else is reasonable. and Nog has to rematch Shogun.

Okay, we'll discount Frye because he's an idiot...

Yoshida still has one LHW win over Tamura. He didn't magically appear in the semi-finals of the last GP. So he has one win by your definition. Then we have the two losses... to Silva. Give any other LHW that same fight schedule and how do you think they would do? Likely the same 1-2. So my point is you can't really draw any conclusions as to how Yoshida stacks up against the other Pride LHWs since we've only seen him against Silva whom he's taken to decision twice. Interestingly he is the ONLY LHW not to be KO'd by Silva since Dan Henderson in December of 2000. So I wouldn't be too hasty in any judgement on his abilities until he see him in action against other LHWs since he's done better than any of them against Silva up to now.


That said, I somewhat agree he doesn't really deserve to be in the reserve matches. I'd like to see him and think he's skilled enough to be there but the four who just lost are more deserving since they advanced farther in the tournament.

[nicknitro]

Igor? Igor got choked out in under two minutes by a kickboxer.

Yoshida took the Pride champion to a decision and did NOT get his face stomped in like every other fighter on Earth.

I have no problem with Pride using their number one ticket seller as well as tough as nails judoka in as an alternate.

Are you talking about Alister? You DO know he won the Abu Dhabi European tournament right? Yea.. he got chocked out by a kickboxer alright, moron.

[BruceLee]

Are you talking about Alister? You DO know he won the Abu Dhabi European tournament right? Yea.. he got chocked out by a kickboxer alright, moron.

Calling a cool mod a moron isn't the smartest thing in the world to do. I dunno, I'm just sayin.

[BruceLee]

Hunt and Frye are over 205 and Gracie is like 185. so yes Yoshida has never won a fight as a 205lb fighter against a 205lb fighter. Don Frye if he did in fact cut to LHW, i wouldn't know cause i haven't seen the fight, is an idiot at no matter what weight he competes

Don Frye's an idiot, I think that speaks volumes about you right there.

Care to elaborate on why he is an idiot?
How much does Don Frye weigh, please post that as well.

And how can you comment so accurately on Yoshida when you haven't even seen all of his fights. By your own admission you haven't seen Frye-Yoshida. Have you even seen Grace-Yoshida 1 at Dynmaite/Shockwave 2002?

Sounds like your just using Sherdog and messageboard rumors to fill your Hatred for Yoshida. You know that's fine, but call it like it is, don't pretend to be objective or claim integrity when your posts display nothing but biasedness as regards to Yoshida.

[hartigan]

Are you talking about Alister? You DO know he won the Abu Dhabi European tournament right? Yea.. he got chocked out by a kickboxer alright, moron.


www.sherdog.com

[nicknitro]

Calling a cool mod a moron isn't the smartest thing in the world to do. I dunno, I'm just sayin.


I dont think the mod is 12 years old.

[Luke]

No he isn't 12 years old, but calling someone a moron really isn't necessary. No matter how old they are.

[tripwire]

1. Japanese fighters have no place in the GP. This is arguable. Nakamura isn't great but he's not as bad as his detractors make him out to be. Kondo has a great standup and flying knee game. And Yoshida has shown the ability to hold his own. The integrity of Pride is fine, as long as these Japanese fighters are competent. It seems that some of you are saying that Japanese fighters are worthless at the LHW level. I disagree with this because Yoshida is okay. I'm not even a big fan of him but he's not bad.

I don't think it is arguable at all. Japanese fighters have no business in the GP in the HW or LHW division in any company. Not because of thier race but because they don't have any fighters in the top of that divison. At all. Japanese fighters ARE worthless at the LHW and HW division. Not by race but by skill. Thats all thier is to it. Lets take a look at the top 10 in the top 3 weight class' and find some japanese fighters that DESERVE to be there.

HW: ummm none. Some say or argue that Fujita belongs there but I beg to differ. Losses to Mirko 2 times, Fedor 1 time and the only "decent" and I use the term loosley win is against Bob Sap in K-1. Sapp is laughable as a MMA fighter. I don't think Fujita is anywhere near the top 10, but a few do. So even if we add him thats 1 fighter.

LHW: None. Some will argue for Kazuhiro Nakamura who has no reason to be in the top 10 either in my opinion. His ONLY "decent" win is against Randleman in a Judges Decision. He has lost to every legitimat non can fighter he has faced. Rog Nog twice, Dan Henderson and now Silva. Even putting Yoshida's name in this division is an embarassment until he actually wins a LHW fight.

MW: 1 fighter at best, I will say Chonan deserves to be there as probably number a low number in the top 10. How many elite fighters has he won against? Anderson Silva if you consider him elite. Carlos Newton? The cartoon character? Come on. I will leave Chonan in there only because he has won his fights, but he needs to be tested by quality fighters before I break him into the top 5.

So in the top 3 heaviest weight classes you have 1 fighter and thats at MW that is Japanese and is in the top 10. So if the GP is legitimately trying to find out who is the best LHW putting anyone other than the best fighters into it is lowering the integrity of the company.


2. That somehow the integrity of Pride and the Japanese companies has to be above that of every other company on the planet. This smacks of a double standard.

I don't think anyone is putting the integrity of pride above other companies. They have to be compared with like companies though. Its ludicrous to compare them with NBA, NFL, MLB or any sport that makes a bazillion more dollars a year than them. You have to put them against like companies such as UFC, K-1, Boxing etc..

Boxing is corrupt as hell, noone is arguing that and it has little integrity if any at all.

UFC may have its problems but one thing it does not do is care what color, race, creed, religion etc its fighters are. They don't care if you have a #1 american fighter at the top, or if they are japanese or hindu or whatever. They only care about who is the best out of the fighters they have. They may put cans against some opponents to get those fighters to a higher level but so does pride. That integrity is not questioned, both organizations do that. But it has NOTHING to do with race in the UFC.

In the racial sense UFC is far and above integrity wise than Pride. I will say it because no one else wants to. Pride is biased towards japanese fighters. They want Japanese fighters to be at the top of the divisions. Wether it be for money, for national pride, or whatever its simply a fact.

[BruceLee]

1. I don't think it is arguable at all. Japanese fighters have no business in the GP in the HW or LHW division in any company.

2. Even putting Yoshida's name in this division is an embarassment until he actually wins a LHW fight.

3. They have to be compared with like companies though. Its ludicrous to compare them with NBA, NFL, MLB or any sport that makes a bazillion more dollars a year than them. You have to put them against like companies such as UFC, K-1, Boxing etc..

4. In the racial sense UFC is far and above integrity wise than Pride. I will say it because no one else wants to. Pride is biased towards japanese fighters. They want Japanese fighters to be at the top of the divisions. Wether it be for money, for national pride, or whatever its simply a fact.

1. I disagree. I think Japanese fighters are capable of qualifying for the top 16. I don't think any of them can win the GP's at this weight class, but there are a couple that are certainly within the top 16. Nobody is saying that they are in the top 3 or 5.

2. Yoshida beat Frye legitamely. Frye weighs in at 210 and can cut weight.

3. Kind of a provincial view of MMA in Japan, isn't it. Certainly, the UFC isn't comparable to the big 5 sports but MMA in Japan is huge. I don't have the numbers but Pride, K-1 generate millions of billions of dollars in revenue. What's the super bowl of Japan? It's the K-1, Pride, New Year's Eve productions. So it isn't "ludicrous", on the contrary it is highly relevant to compare the number 2 sport in Japan to the Big five in the U.S.

4. You're making a strawman argument, or should I say SCARECROW, scarecrow . . . Nobody's arguing that Pride doesn't favor Japanese fighters. If you actually read the whole thread you would know this. Don't pretend to invent the light bulb or reinvent the wheel. We all know Pride favors Japanese fighters. That's the way it is. The only argument is whether it is even worth arguing about. All I'm telling CTD to do is drop it, and CTD argues that it's not fair. We all agree that Pride favors the Japanese, so this statement is silly from you.

[cumthedestroyer]

whoa, i don't hate Yoshida. i simply prefer Nog and Vochanchyn because they are the only 2 fighters eliminated in the 2nd round that have legitimate arguments for rematches. Nog's fight was razor close and i wouldn't have been surprised to see it split. Igor lost from a quick submission that could have been defended. Yoshida has had his 2 losses to Silva now and that's enough. i'm anxiously excited at the prospect of Yoshida competing amongst more LHWs, i just don't think he should be given an oppurtunity to re-enter the tournament.

[BruceLee]

whoa, i don't hate Yoshida. i simply prefer Nog and Vochanchyn because they are the only 2 fighters eliminated in the 2nd round that have legitimate arguments for rematches. Nog's fight was razor close and i wouldn't have been surprised to see it split. Igor lost from a quick submission that could have been defended. Yoshida has had his 2 losses to Silva now and that's enough. i'm anxiously excited at the prospect of Yoshida competing amongst more LHWs, i just don't think he should be given an oppurtunity to re-enter the tournament.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are 4 spots open for the two alternate fights. Sure you want Igor and Nog, but with 4 spots they can accomodate all 3.

As for Kondo and the overwhelmed Nakamura, according to your original source, they "may be eligible to qualify" as an alternate. That's not even saying that they will be alternates. Basically it doesn't say anything.

[cumthedestroyer]

what do they need 4 alternates for anyway? In case both finalists drop out before the final? that's never happened, and no one has ever anticipated for it before. i don't think Yoshida, Kondo, or Nakamura should be allowed to re-access the tournament especially in it's final stages. if there must be an alternate match for the reserve fighter the only pairing i believe is suitable is Noguiera and Vovchanchyn. it doesn't say anything other than it sounded as tho they're sure on Yoshida. i disapprove and that's what i'm talkin about.

[Cbear]

Alternates shouldn't be a factor as I don't see anyone dropping out short of having a heart attack. We all might have our preferences as to who we want to see fight or what style--ie a standup battle with Igor and Silva. Yosh and Little Nog were certainly more competitive in their losses than Igor or Sakuraba so I lean toward them.

[cumthedestroyer]

but don't you see!?!? Igor and Nog made it to the second round and have strong cases for rematches regarding the losses that put them out. Yoshida's elimination was a rematch!

i know Yoshida's already in it....god knows he might have won that last fight with Silva had it not been for that yellow card! he's one of the most persistant wrist holders in mma. really...i have no idea how anyone could have seen his rematch with Silva as being a good fight for Yoshida or even an improvement from his first.

[Cbear]

but don't you see!?!? Igor and Nog made it to the second round and have strong cases for rematches regarding the losses that put them out. Yoshida's elimination was a rematch!

i know Yoshida's already in it....god knows he might have won that last fight with Silva had it not been for that yellow card! he's one of the most persistant wrist holders in mma. really...i have no idea how anyone could have seen his rematch with Silva as being a good fight for Yoshida or even an improvement from his first.

I'm just not excited about the concept of alternates in general or how they pick them. Pride usually does what they think will sell tickets and Yosh moves more than anyone. I think Little Nog was the most competitive fighter from the later rounds of the GP and if they just picked him as alternate, thats fine. One alternate should be plenty.

As for Yoshida, the reason his name keeps coming up is that everyone expects Silva to be one of the two finalists and there is a short list of past opponents that Silva wasn't able to stomp a mudhole in. Yosh is one of those.

[BruceLee]

what do they need 4 alternates for anyway? In case both finalists drop out before the final? that's never happened, and no one has ever anticipated for it before.

CTD, Yes, exactly for that situation.

They can't just have one alternate because that wouldn't be fair to have a fresh alternate go up against a finalist who has already fought one time. So the alternate has to fight in one fight before the finals.

This is the CornCop rule. To prevent Nebraskan Ninjitsu's like Steve Jennum from winning the tournament with one fight and tarnishing the image of the organization.

Also:
Theoretically, Arona could advance but be too battered to continue, and let's say Overeem advances but gets massacred by Silva in the process and can't fight. Then Pride has to prepare for that contingency by having two alternates in the finals who have both fought previosuly.

This usually doesn't happen but with this GP it is a possiblity given the 4 remaining fighters.

Second:
Why does Yoshida have to be in an alternate, besides what has already been stated? Their aren't enough spots on the card.


Pride Final Conflict 2003 had 8 fights.
Pride Final Conflict 2004 had 7 fights.
So you can expect only 7-8 fights.
You have
1. GP alternate semifinal 1
2. GP alternate semifinal 2
3. GP semifinal 1
4. GP semifinal 2
5. GP finals
6. Mirko vs. Fedor

that leaves only 1-2 extra fights outside of the GP and Mirko/Fedor.
I'm sure Pride would like to get as many countries repesented at this event as possible given the magnitue of CroCop, Fedor.

So let's say they want the Korean market. Then Mu Bae Choi will be in fight 7.
And if they want an American fighter than maybe Josh Barnett if he's healthy in fight 8 agaisnt a heavy.
How the hell do they fit Yoshida in if they already have 5 LHW fights. They'll have a hard time doing it unless they put him in as an alternate.

And this doesn't even take in account that every Pride event has had at least 3 Japanese fighters in it.

With only 7 fights it almost becomes impossible to fit 3 or more Japanese fighters in if they can't participate in the GP as alternates.

With 8 fights it can be done but then you'll see a Japanese face a Japanese and we all saw how great that was with Tamura-Takimoto.

[bigjay]

I don't think it is arguable at all. Japanese fighters have no business in the GP in the HW or LHW division in any company. Not because of thier race but because they don't have any fighters in the top of that divison. At all. Japanese fighters ARE worthless at the LHW and HW division. Not by race but by skill. Thats all thier is to it. Lets take a look at the top 10 in the top 3 weight class' and find some japanese fighters that DESERVE to be there.



LHW: None. Some will argue for Kazuhiro Nakamura who has no reason to be in the top 10 either in my opinion. His ONLY "decent" win is against Randleman in a Judges Decision. He has lost to every legitimat non can fighter he has faced. Rog Nog twice, Dan Henderson and now Silva. Even putting Yoshida's name in this division is an embarassment until he actually wins a LHW fight.


So in the top 3 heaviest weight classes you have 1 fighter and thats at MW that is Japanese and is in the top 10. So if the GP is legitimately trying to find out who is the best LHW putting anyone other than the best fighters into it is lowering the integrity of the company.



I don't think anyone is putting the integrity of pride above other companies. They have to be compared with like companies though. Its ludicrous to compare them with NBA, NFL, MLB or any sport that makes a bazillion more dollars a year than them. You have to put them against like companies such as UFC, K-1, Boxing etc..

Boxing is corrupt as hell, noone is arguing that and it has little integrity if any at all.

UFC may have its problems but one thing it does not do is care what color, race, creed, religion etc its fighters are. They don't care if you have a #1 american fighter at the top, or if they are japanese or hindu or whatever. They only care about who is the best out of the fighters they have. They may put cans against some opponents to get those fighters to a higher level but so does pride. That integrity is not questioned, both organizations do that. But it has NOTHING to do with race in the UFC.

In the racial sense UFC is far and above integrity wise than Pride. I will say it because no one else wants to. Pride is biased towards japanese fighters. They want Japanese fighters to be at the top of the divisions. Wether it be for money, for national pride, or whatever its simply a fact.

I trimmed out the HW and MW comments sinces I'm not going to bother with them. I don't know much about the MW or HWs in question.

For LHWs, comparing the Pride LHW division and UFC LHW divison is like comparing a mud puddle to a lake. For Pride we have the arrayed LHWs for the GP. For UFC we have what, Liddel, Couture, Babalau and then... Horn? TUF guys? Not a whole lot. The UFC uses their best guys because THAT'S ALL THEY HAVE! No-one wants to watch their second-tier guys because they're more or less rank amateurs. Pride has a much deeper talent pool and thus the leeway to throw in fighters that are draws or novelties (high rank but inexperienced athletes from other sports, Giant Silvas, etc).

Throw Nakamura or Yoshida up against the second tier UFC guys and I think we'd see them stack up pretty well. They might have trouble having with the top Pride LHWs but that's because the division is stacked.

Yoshida has beaten every LHW he's fought besides Silva (Frye, Tamura) so the jury is still out on him. Once again, he's the only one who's managed to not get completely stomped by the Axe Murderer in five years. It's frustrating that Pride has kind of dicked him around by giving him wierd HW match-ups and Gracie fights and such but to discount him is pretty silly. He's a draw and a tough competitor. I really hope we get to see him prove that against someone besides Silva before he's too old to compete.

[dhk1980]

I have to agree with C.T.D. on this one. That is a piss poor choice of alternates for the G.P.

you're just upset cuz igor isnt included. :p

[FULL_CONTACT[MBRP]]

Zé Mário Sperry or Royce Gracie
I'm happy with both

[cumthedestroyer]

neither Sperry or Royce have been considered. as far as i am aware there doesn't seem to be a reserve match for final conflict as the only 205lb fighters who are facing off outside of the GP brackets are Belfort and Kondo.