Thoughts on UFC57 card?

[Briezy]

MMA Weekly says its almost a lock...

- Chuck Liddell vs Randy Couture
- Babalu Sobral vs Mike Van Arsdale
- Paul Buentello vs Gilbert Aldano -
- Frank Mir vs Marcio "Pe De Pano" Cruz
- Justin Eilers vs Brandon Vera -
- Brandon Lee Hinkle vs Jeff Monson
- Mike Whitehead vs Keith Jardine
- Alessio Sakara vs Elvis Sinosic


My passion for MMA is somewhat new, as I have been a fan since UFC1 but just got hooked from TUF. I am pretty pissed that guys like Whitehead and Sinosic are on a PPV card. Whitehead should be on the first bus out of UFC. The only difference between him and Kevin Jordan is that UFC56 had a crowd and TUF didn't...Whitehead would have been booed out of the building. UFC is continually booking good guys like Babalu against guys like Van Arsdale who has nothing but a "punchers chance". I could go on, point being the only intriguing matchup is probably the main event. I think they are counting on drawing buys off that match alone and are reluctant to give us anything else. That match aside I like the UFN card almost as much. Thoughts?

[Drunken Gamer]

MMA Weekly says its almost a lock...

- Chuck Liddell vs Randy Couture
- Babalu Sobral vs Mike Van Arsdale
- Paul Buentello vs Gilbert Aldano -
- Frank Mir vs Marcio "Pe De Pano" Cruz
- Justin Eilers vs Brandon Vera -
- Brandon Lee Hinkle vs Jeff Monson
- Mike Whitehead vs Keith Jardine
- Alessio Sakara vs Elvis Sinosic


My passion for MMA is somewhat new, as I have been a fan since UFC1 but just got hooked from TUF. I am pretty pissed that guys like Whitehead and Sinosic are on a PPV card. Whitehead should be on the first bus out of UFC. The only difference between him and Kevin Jordan is that UFC56 had a crowd and TUF didn't...Whitehead would have been booed out of the building. UFC is continually booking good guys like Babalu against guys like Van Arsdale who has nothing but a "punchers chance". I could go on, point being the only intriguing matchup is probably the main event. I think they are counting on drawing buys off that match alone and are reluctant to give us anything else. That match aside I like the UFN card almost as much. Thoughts?

I haven't ordered a UFC for a looooong time. The UFC went downhill: the marketing is childish, the production is cheesy, the caliber of fighters is a joke when compared to Pride's, and the cards suck. Look at the main event: Chuck vs Randy III.........yawn. That is certainly not worth $35.

Verdict: maybe download the Randy/Chuck fight. Save the $35 for Pride's Shockwave!

[Hammerhouse]

I pretty much agree with everything you say. How the **** Mike whitehead even gets in a UFC ring after his awful performance at tuf is beyond me. But hey, if Quarry, who didnt even fight in TUF can get a ****ing title match before Deigo (who won the whole ****ing thing) then **** lets get Melvin back in there. At least he fought and looked like he wanted to actually fight.

[ACIDBATHBELFORT]

Chuck/Randy III is going to be GREAT. I think the Babalu/Van Arsdale fight has potential the more I think about it. I like it. Good to see Mir back, Im glad he has a gimme fight to work the kinks out before getting in the ring with Arlovski. Other than that this is cheap piece of **** card. Pure crap. The talent level other than that for the most part is a joke. They shouldnt be on PPV.

[robbypark]

The UFC is really banking on Chuck/Randy being their draw because for the most part that card sucks. There is one great fight, one good fight, one "Ok" fight and that's it.

It's been a long time since the UFC has released a packed card.

[Loot]

Man....for some reason I was excited to see this event....now, seeing it on paper, I am not sure if I will even get it..

[ACIDBATHBELFORT]

The sad thing is the more bigger, mainstream the UFC gets it seems the more watered the product is becoming. You right Robby, it really seems since around when TUF the UFC has turned to pure crap. They see how recognized these TUF guys are so they are trying to make a quick buck off of them. To the unhardcore fans, first watching MMA these guys have talent. I dont see the UFC getting any better either. Sure Dana brought back Tito, BJ, and Ken but it doesnt seem to be worth anything. Another worthless card for the most part. I hate to use the term, but most "newbs" are probably gonna look at the winner of Whitehead/Jardine as a top tier HW. You know that fight will be shown.

[Briezy]

I didn't want to see Jardine or Whitehead fight on TUF, let alone PPV. I think they have plenty of good fighters to at least have 2 good fights a PPV. You figure a fighter fights at least every 3 PPV's or so, the good ones anyway. At Welterweight alone we have Diaz, Sanchez, Hughes, Penn, GSP, Trigg, Parisyan, Sherk, Riggs ect. None of them are on the card. Maybe its bad match making as much as it is lack of talent. They wasted most of then all together, with half of them alone on last card, and Diaz and Sahnchez on the show before. I would be fine with the card if a combination of any two of those 8 or 9 guys were on the card. When is Parisyan back?

[sportsgenius86]

I honestly think that Mir-Cruz is an underrated fight. I think this has potential to be very good.

[Nice ol' Rat]

MMA Weekly says its almost a lock...

- Chuck Liddell vs Randy Couture
- Babalu Sobral vs Mike Van Arsdale
- Paul Buentello vs Gilbert Aldano -
- Frank Mir vs Marcio "Pe De Pano" Cruz
- Justin Eilers vs Brandon Vera -
- Brandon Lee Hinkle vs Jeff Monson
- Mike Whitehead vs Keith Jardine
- Alessio Sakara vs Elvis Sinosic



I just threw up in my own mouth... This card is garbage.

Does the winner of Chuck/Randy get his AARP card? The only thing good about it is that Randy will finally retire afterward--another once great and well liked champ goes out with a whimper...sad.

I like Babalu, but Van Arsdale? Van Arsdale is boring.

Frank Mir is a has been. If he was smart, he would've quit while injured, then everyone would've held him in high regard, "Remember Mir?" "Yeah, he was the ****, too bad about his accident that ended his career." Instead, he'll come back and get smoked by Arlovski, then dumped by Dana only to go to Pride to get rolled by 5 or 6 dudes.

Buentello? Bum. Eilers? Can. Monson? Nobody.

I knew Whitehead was blowing Hughes, but he must be slobbin' on Dana's hog also. There's no way he deserves to sniff the IFC, let alone the UFC.

Oh, and I don't mind seeing Sakara in there just to see if he's worth a ****.

[Serialkilla]

I'm looking forward to it...

Whitehead and Jardine will be on the undercard (At least it better) so it won't be 100% BS...

More like 85%...

There are 5 fights that are either good match ups or or important...

- Chuck Liddell vs Randy Couture
- Babalu Sobral vs Mike Van Arsdale
- Frank Mir vs Marcio "Pe De Pano" Cruz
- Justin Eilers vs Brandon Vera
- Alessio Sakara vs Elvis Sinosic

I'll be buying it.

[robbypark]

I honestly think that Mir-Cruz is an underrated fight. I think this has potential to be very good.

The fight might get interesting if Cruz can get it to the ground. If not, Mir should destroy him. Pe da Pano has had one fight in his career. If Mir loses, he should retire.

[BigFilth]

Some of you complain about the $35 for this card, but don't you guys have friends to watch the event with? Meaning, split the cost a few ways. Everytime I watch Pride, or the UFC I split with 4 of my friends.

[Drunken Gamer]

Some of you complain about the $35 for this card, but don't you guys have friends to watch the event with? Meaning, split the cost a few ways. Everytime I watch Pride, or the UFC I split with 4 of my friends.


None of my friends would want to waste their time watching a bunch of crappy fighters pitted against each other. If this was the case, then we would be ordering and splitting all of the KOTC PPVs.

[BigFilth]

None of my friends would want to waste their time watching a bunch of crappy fighters pitted against each other. If this was the case, then we would be ordering and splitting all of the KOTC PPVs.

Yeah, real crappy fighters - Chuck Liddell, Randy Couture, Babalu Sobral, Frank Mir, Mike Van Arsdale :rolleyes:

[landhawk]

This card sucks.

Chuck Liddell vs Randy Couture= Good fight

Babalu Sobral vs Mike Van Arsdale= Mismatch. Babalu is great, MVA is a nobody

Paul Buentello vs Gilbert Aldano= Horrible Horrible fight

Frank Mir vs Marcio "Pe De Pano" Cruz= ****ty mismatch. Cruz has had one fight!

Justin Eilers vs Brandon Vera= The Can vs the Nobody. Yay.

Brandon Lee Hinkle vs Jeff Monson= Two no-namers who will never go anywhere

Mike Whitehead vs Keith Jardine= Two cans

Alessio Sakara vs Elvis Sinosic= A guy who is 6-8-2 vs a guy who's claim to fame is going to a no contest with a can.

[ilostmydog]

The fight might get interesting if Cruz can get it to the ground. If not, Mir should destroy him. Pe da Pano has had one fight in his career. If Mir loses, he should retire.

Hopefully this fight exposes Mir as being somewhat less than a "BJJ wizard" or whatever the hell his fanboy's call him.

[Hrock]

I dont complain much about the fight cards but this is getting rediculous.
The card looked great at first but now we have Eilers/Vera, Hinkle/Monson and Whitehead/Jardine? are you kidding me? KOTC gets much better than this...At least put them on the UFN undercared.

Put Bonnar/Irvin, Leben/Rivera, and Fisher/Riley in place of the three borefests, and the loyal fans have a great card worth buying.

We need to send a petition to UFC.tv or something....I will buy this card like I do all cards but this is getting out of hand...Bring back the frickin lightweights will you Dana White.

I said this in another post...these no name HWs should be fed to the UFC's top men. (as few as there are) there is no need to try and build a nobody, just build another fighter off of the TUF guys popularity....and stop putting them against eachother, The show is over already.

[Drunken Gamer]

Yeah, real crappy fighters - Chuck Liddell, Randy Couture, Babalu Sobral, Frank Mir, Mike Van Arsdale :rolleyes:


Chuck Liddlell vs Randy III - yawn.
Frank Mir- crap fighter. Gasses after 5 minutes.
Babalu - bOOOOring......
Mike Van Arsdale - who????

:rolleyes:

If you like crap fighters, then you will LOVE Bum fights! Check it out here:http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000BT2WWY/qid=1134653356/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-9239252-0831963?v=glance&n=507846

:rolleyes:

[just Brian]

This card requires a group purchase...4 or 5 guys to pitch in to cover the cost. I would have a real hard time paying the full cost myself. Liddel, Couture, Sobral are the only guys I'm interested in seeing fight.

I try not to be too critical of UFC cards, but Buentello, Aldano, Eilers, Hinkle, Monson, Whitehead, Jardine? My god, is this KOTC or what?

[skaarup]

Chuck Liddlell vs Randy III - yawn.
Frank Mir- crap fighter. Gasses after 5 minutes.
Babalu - bOOOOring......
Mike Van Arsdale - who????



:rolleyes:

If you like crap fighters, then you will LOVE Bum fights! Check it out here:http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000BT2WWY/qid=1134653356/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-9239252-0831963?v=glance&n=507846

:rolleyes:




bum fights is great...i got the video... GO rufus!!!

[Anytime]

- Chuck Liddell vs Randy Couture
- Babalu Sobral vs Mike Van Arsdale
- Paul Buentello vs Gilbert Aldano -
- Frank Mir vs Marcio "Pe De Pano" Cruz
- Justin Eilers vs Brandon Vera -
- Brandon Lee Hinkle vs Jeff Monson
- Mike Whitehead vs Keith Jardine
- Alessio Sakara vs Elvis Sinosic

all HWs and LHWs.. hmmm..
chuck n randy.. get r done.
bab n van arsdale.. good match up
'head' hunter (he goes for the nuts) vs. aldano.. at least it should be over quick
mir vs. cruz.. good way to bring mir back but it may be a tougher fight than most people are predicting..
white tyson vs. vera.. good times..
blh n da snowman.. sounds good on paper but may get boring quick..
whitehead vs. mr. 'last fight of your contract'.. thank god its over after this
sakara n elvis.. thank god sak isn't fighting the 'head' hunter..
good card overall.. but i would have liked to see some WWs on the card.. i can understand no MWs though.. they need to get some depth in that division..

[Anytime]

Some of you complain about the $35 for this card, but don't you guys have friends to watch the event with? Meaning, split the cost a few ways. Everytime I watch Pride, or the UFC I split with 4 of my friends.
same here.. two of my co-workers have been MMA fans from the beginning and we've gotten mostly everyone else at work interested.. we get about ten people together for each show.. the brothas always complain when the fight goes to the ground cuz they don't understand any ground game.. but at least they bring chicken wings!

[Loot]

I cannot seem to get anyone interested in this stuff.....I usually invite 40 people over to watch the card for free, and 1-4 show up......of course, my invitees consist mainly of graduate pscyhology students, mostly female, and very busy.....Since i entered grad school the only people I interact with are other students...you have all your classes in the same building with the same 20 people or so....And everyone is really busy, so only hardcore fans would want to spend their one free night of the week watching MMA. I can sell bar nights more easily.....

MMA is a tough sell to this crowd...

[Anytime]

I cannot seem to get anyone interested in this stuff.....I usually invite 40 people over to watch the card for free, and 1-4 show up......of course, my invitees consist mainly of graduate pscyhology students, mostly female, and very busy.....Since i entered grad school the only people I interact with are other students...you have all your classes in the same building with the same 20 people or so....And everyone is really busy, so only hardcore fans would want to spend their one free night of the week watching MMA. I can sell bar nights more easily.....

MMA is a tough sell to this crowd...
i had that problem at first too.. i let some people borrow my DVDs and that got a few people interested.. and once someone sees a great show (Pride NYE is always a great one for first timers), they convert immediately.. and some people just can't get it at all it seems.. too barbaric for them and they can't appreciate the sport of it..

[Loot]

I have given out the DVDs....I am not dealing with "normal" people, I am dealing with people who want to be psychologists j/k

[nhbfan8080]

I just threw up in my own mouth... This card is garbage.
....

Won't blame you for throwing up. This card sucks again as usual.
UFC supposedly has better MW and WW but not one matchup for those divisions?! Instead we get 5 crappy matches in the worst division of UFC.

God knows what Fathead did to get on the card after being exposed as a terrible HW. UFC simply prefers big sloppy bangers.

[robbypark]

I still don't see how the UFC has a better MW division than PRIDE. The UFC MW division is one of the shallowest divisions in MMA. Right now they have Loiseau, Franklin, and then nobody else. There is no other title contender in that division. If Franklin beats Loiseau all he's going to do is fight B-C level fighters to defend his title. Other than that, who do you have in the division that's worth a damn? Chris Leben? Evan Tanner who has already lost to Frankling twice? Nathan Marquardt who is still pending decision from the NSAC for taking steroids?

In PRIDE, the division is packed with fighters. The winner of Hendo/Busta will still have plenty of title contenders such as undefeated Paulo Filho, Murilo Ninja, and Kondo if he decides to move down.

[ACIDBATHBELFORT]

I may be wrong, but I thought Hendo said he doesnt plan on staying at MW? Nonetheless, the MW division seemed to have a lot of potential in the UFC. Its isnt looking healthy at all at he moment. Pride takes it easily. UFC only has a great division with the WWs. Which might be the best in MMA. Tough to call though, the LWs in Pride are right there.

[nhbfan8080]

I still don't see how the UFC has a better MW division than PRIDE. The UFC MW division is one of the shallowest divisions in MMA. Right now they have Loiseau, Franklin, and then nobody else. There is no other title contender in that division. If Franklin beats Loiseau all he's going to do is fight B-C level fighters to defend his title. Other than that, who do you have in the division that's worth a damn? Chris Leben? Evan Tanner who has already lost to Frankling twice? Nathan Marquardt who is still pending decision from the NSAC for taking steroids?

In PRIDE, the division is packed with fighters. The winner of Hendo/Busta will still have plenty of title contenders such as undefeated Paulo Filho, Murilo Ninja, and Kondo if he decides to move down.

It isn't that bad in UFC at MW.There are 4 very good competitors. I doubt Marquardt is in serious trouble. And Pride only has 1 more if you count Kondo.

[robbypark]

It isn't that bad in UFC at MW.There are 4 very good competitors. I doubt Marquardt is in serious trouble. And Pride only has 1 more if you count Kondo.

UFC would be a in a lot better straits if they didn't fire both Lindland and Salaverry.

And speaking of Marquardt, let's say he stays in the UFC and doesn't get fired.(He probably will because of his showing against Salaverry) That's a notch for the UFC. But then look at the supposed "up-and-comers" they have. It's pretty bad. They've got Chris Leben and then who? B level guys like Patrick Cote and Edwin Dewees which rounds out the entire division. Diego Sanchez and Josh Koscheck competed at 185 for TUF, but they've both decided to go to 170. It's really a very shallow division and I for one hope that Loiseau wins the title just to freshen things up.

With PRIDE they've developed a stacked roster of Middleweights consisting of great fighters, good fighters, and awesome up-and-comers. Among these names you've got Denis Kang, Daniel Acacio, Akihiro Gono, Ikuhisa Minowa, Phil Baroni, Andrei Semenov, Amar Suloev, and Dean Lister.(And this is excluding Dan Henderson, Murilo Bustamante, Paulo Filho, and Murilo Ninja)

[nhbfan8080]

UFC would be a in a lot better straits if they didn't fire both Lindland and Salaverry.
.........
With PRIDE they've developed a stacked roster of Middleweights consisting of great fighters, good fighters, and awesome up-and-comers. Among these names you've got Denis Kang, Daniel Acacio, Akihiro Gono, Ikuhisa Minowa, Phil Baroni, Andrei Semenov, Amar Suloev, and Dean Lister.(And this is excluding Dan Henderson, Murilo Bustamante, Paulo Filho, and Murilo Ninja)

You're absolutely right. I missed a whole bunch of names there.

[Tony Montana]

The UFC's MW division has a lot more than just Franklin and Loiseau. I don't understand how you can ignore Prangley, Horn (last fight at MW), Terrell (when the hell is he fighting again?), Lindland (assuming he comes back at some time of course), Tanner (how quickly people jump off his bandwagon), Sell (decent fighter), Quarry (decent), Swick (decent and exciting), Leben (decent and exciting), Cote (decent although has failed to prove it thus far I admit), Salaverry (will be back at some point probably), Riggs (I think he may be back at MW now), Lawler (will be back in the UFC soon I think) etc...

Also, I would imagine Nathan Marquardt will be back as soon as the trial is over.

The UFC's MW division has pretty much everyone. Who did Busta and Hendo really beat to make it to the finals anyways? Only Hendo cracks my top 10 list. Beside these two PRIDE's got Gono, Minowa and Baroni (who is rumored to come back to the UFC). C'mon. It ain't even close.

[Tony Montana]

As far as UFC 57 goes, the match-making has gone to hell in a hand basket.

Sakara is ten times the striker Forrest is. Why the hell make Sakara fight Sinosic if only to boost Sakara's worth with an expected KO? ****ty match-making.

Mir gets someone with no experience to obviously help fuel Mir vs Arlovski.

Buentello gets someone no one knows (although word is he's a good striker). Why not have Buentello vs Kyle? Or how about Buentello vs Sylvia? I think they're trying to give Buentello someone to KO to boost his latino stock back up.

Why is Loiseau vs Franklin not on this card? That would have made this card an A. Instead it's a C.

The UFC still has a lot of good fighters. But, they're not trying to make the best fights anymore. Instead, they're match-making is motivated by $. It's unfortunate the things that success brings with it.

[nhbfan8080]

UFC hasn't got 'pretty much everyone'.

Heres how I see them:
Pride A Hendo, Bustamante, Lister, PauloFilho, Ninja
Pride B Gono, Semenov, Suloev, Kang
Pride C Minowa, Acacio, Misaki, Takase

UFC A Franklin, Tanner, Marquardt, Loiseau, Horn
UFC B Prangley, Salaverry
UFC C Quarry, Cote, Swick, Riggs, Lawler, Terrell, Sell, Baroni

Kondo probably isn't going to drop down and Lindland isn't coming back.

As far as UFC 57 goes, the match-making has gone to hell in a hand basket.

Sakara is ten times the striker Forrest is. Why the hell make Sakara fight Sinosic if only to boost Sakara's worth with an expected KO? ****ty match-making.

Mir gets someone with no experience to obviously help fuel Mir vs Arlovski.

Buentello gets someone no one knows (although word is he's a good striker). Why not have Buentello vs Kyle? Or how about Buentello vs Sylvia? I think they're trying to give Buentello someone to KO to boost his latino stock back up.
Why is Loiseau vs Franklin not on this card? That would have made this card an A. Instead it's a C.
........

Match-making isn't the problem. Its lousy and subpar fighters who make up the card no matter how much shuffling around goes on.

Sakara hasn't got any record against decent opponents so the matchup with Sinosic is one of contrasting styles, so it isn't bad, just that the match is an unknown vs subpar.

Loiseau-Franklin won't suddenly turn around the whole event into an A. It will just suck less.

[tupark]

[QUOTE=Drunken Gamer]Chuck Liddlell vs Randy III - yawn.
Frank Mir- crap fighter. Gasses after 5 minutes.
Babalu - bOOOOring......
Mike Van Arsdale - who????

:rolleyes:

Why are you such an ass? You have claimed to be a fighter in other threads yet you show absolutely no respect for any of the fighters. Every single one of those you have listed there are great fighters and are obviously better than you because they are not posting ****ty replies on websites. For some reason you are so bitter towards all these fighters. Its seems to me like you're just a pissed off, no talent pussy who never made anything out of him/herself.

I apologize to anyone else reading this but I can't stand this dude.

[sportsgenius86]

UFC hasn't got 'pretty much everyone'.

Heres how I see them:
Pride A Hendo, Bustamante, Lister, PauloFilho, Ninja
Pride B Gono, Semenov, Suloev, Kang
Pride C Minowa, Acacio, Misaki, Takase

UFC A Franklin, Tanner, Marquardt, Loiseau, Horn
UFC B Prangley, Salaverry
UFC C Quarry, Cote, Swick, Riggs, Lawler, Terrell, Sell, Baroni

Kondo probably isn't going to drop down and Lindland isn't coming back.



Match-making isn't the problem. Its lousy and subpar fighters who make up the card no matter how much shuffling around goes on.

Sakara hasn't got any record against decent opponents so the matchup with Sinosic is one of contrasting styles, so it isn't bad, just that the match is an unknown vs subpar.

Loiseau-Franklin won't suddenly turn around the whole event into an A. It will just suck less.


Baroni is a C on the UFC list but fits right in as a B on the pride list....that's enough to say that UFC's MW's are better

[claymore]

Pride's 185 is much better. The UFC's quite frankly is quite weak. I'd take Kang to beat almost every MW in the UFC. Plus, Dan Henderson would kill Rich Franklin.

[Loot]

I apologize to anyone else reading this but I can't stand this dude.

No apologies needed...

[sportsgenius86]

Why are you such an ass? You have claimed to be a fighter in other threads yet you show absolutely no respect for any of the fighters. Every single one of those you have listed there are great fighters and are obviously better than you because they are not posting ****ty replies on websites. For some reason you are so bitter towards all these fighters. Its seems to me like you're just a pissed off, no talent pussy who never made anything out of him/herself.

I apologize to anyone else reading this but I can't stand this dude.


keywords rule

[cameronb]

lets not forget that van arsdale has only two mma losses one to wanderlei and the othe to randy couture both of which are two of the greatest mma fighters ever. he may be a wrestler but he doesnt not just lay and pray he stays busy with very good gnp i am looking forward to the fight with babalu

[cameronb]

same here.. two of my co-workers have been MMA fans from the beginning and we've gotten mostly everyone else at work interested.. we get about ten people together for each show.. the brothas always complain when the fight goes to the ground cuz they don't understand any ground game.. but at least they bring chicken wings!
that is the only reason i can not stand having anyone else watch it with me therefore to save me the headache and frustration i just pay the full price by myself

[cameronb]

Pride's 185 is much better. The UFC's quite frankly is quite weak. I'd take Kang to beat almost every MW in the UFC. Plus, Dan Henderson would kill Rich Franklin.
no way in hell would dan henderson "kill" franklin, it would be an excellent fight but i would still pick franklin

[Loot]

that is the only reason i can not stand having anyone else watch it with me therefore to save me the headache and frustration i just pay the full price by myself

Give it time.....once they learna bit more, they will get into the ground game...I always show people Hughes/GSP to demonstrate why the groud game is exiciting...it can end in the blink of an eye (that may not be the best fight to show, but I do not have ever Pride and UFC DVD out there

[tripwire]

Pride's 185 is much better. The UFC's quite frankly is quite weak. I'd take Kang to beat almost every MW in the UFC. Plus, Dan Henderson would kill Rich Franklin.

Your crazy. What has Kang done and whom has he beaten to even come close to beating Franklin, Loiseau, Horn, or hell any of the top guys at 185 in the UFC?

I am not defending the UFC per se just wondering where the love for Kang and some of the pride guys has come from? Kang lost to Meyhem Miller, Doerkson and a bunch of other crappy fighters. He hasn't won 1 fight against anyone impressive.

As far as Henderson killing Franklin? That would be a hell of a fight but not one I would guaruntee for Hendo. Franklin is at the top of his game and has beaten some of the best fighters out there Fulton, Eastman, Tanner x2, Rivera, Stout, Dewees, Shamrock. His only loss was to Machida. Out of his 17 wins NONE have been by decision. All either KO or Sub. Thats pretty impressive.

I think the UFC division DOMINATES the pride division with the exception of Hendo, Filho and possibly Bustamante. The others in Pride don't impress me near as much as those in the UFC. Lister, Kang, Baroni, Ninja, Gono, Minowa, Semenov. All decent fighters but I think each of them lose to any of these UFC guys: Franklin, Tanner, Loiseau, Horn, Marquardt, and even Lawler if you count him in the UFC.

[ncfa guy]

Not to mention Terrell already beat Kang.

[ilostmydog]

Not to mention Terrell already beat Kang.

Since when?

[robbypark]

Your crazy. What has Kang done and whom has he beaten to even come close to beating Franklin, Loiseau, Horn, or hell any of the top guys at 185 in the UFC?

I am not defending the UFC per se just wondering where the love for Kang and some of the pride guys has come from? Kang lost to Meyhem Miller, Doerkson and a bunch of other crappy fighters. He hasn't won 1 fight against anyone impressive.

As far as Henderson killing Franklin? That would be a hell of a fight but not one I would guaruntee for Hendo. Franklin is at the top of his game and has beaten some of the best fighters out there Fulton, Eastman, Tanner x2, Rivera, Stout, Dewees, Shamrock. His only loss was to Machida. Out of his 17 wins NONE have been by decision. All either KO or Sub. Thats pretty impressive.

I think the UFC division DOMINATES the pride division with the exception of Hendo, Filho and possibly Bustamante. The others in Pride don't impress me near as much as those in the UFC. Lister, Kang, Baroni, Ninja, Gono, Minowa, Semenov. All decent fighters but I think each of them lose to any of these UFC guys: Franklin, Tanner, Loiseau, Horn, Marquardt, and even Lawler if you count him in the UFC.

Kang lost to those guys a LONG time ago. He has like a 15 fight win streak. If you don't think a win over Andrei Semenov is impressive I pity you. Secondly, Robbie Lawler sucks and he's not in the UFC, he's in ICON.

Franklin's win list is very unimpressive. The only man of note that he has beaten is Evan Tanner. All the rest of the guys you listed are B-C class fighters not worth noting. Now compare that to the guys Hendo has beaten.(at 205 no less) There you go.

And Tanner and Marquardt don't classify on the same level as Hendo, Busta, amnd Filho. And if you don't think Ninja is not an automatic title contender, than I think that's sad.

I don't even think the divisions are that close. PRIDE by a landslide.

[ncfa guy]

After doing some research on the intarweb, I may have been mistaken about Kang losing to Terrell in an MMA bout (although I was almost positive he had). I did find that Terrell beat him in a grappling match at the ADCC. So until I can find information otherwise, I apologize for posting false information.

[sportsgenius86]

Kang lost to those guys a LONG time ago. He has like a 15 fight win streak. If you don't think a win over Andrei Semenov is impressive I pity you. Secondly, Robbie Lawler sucks and he's not in the UFC, he's in ICON.

Franklin's win list is very unimpressive. The only man of note that he has beaten is Evan Tanner. All the rest of the guys you listed are B-C class fighters not worth noting. Now compare that to the guys Hendo has beaten.(at 205 no less) There you go.

And Tanner and Marquardt don't classify on the same level as Hendo, Busta, amnd Filho. And if you don't think Ninja is not an automatic title contender, than I think that's sad.

I don't even think the divisions are that close. PRIDE by a landslide.


so i guess that makes 2 of the UFC's B-level fighters very impressive as well because Salaverry and Prangley have both taken down Semenov and Salaverry didn't even need to go to decision like Kang did. Other than Semenov there isn't really anyone worth a damn in that winning streak unless you count Keith Rockel as worth a damn.

Lawler's losses are to Tanner, Spratt and Diaz.
Kang's losses are to Miller, Doerkson, Marty Armendarez ????, joe slick and jacen flynn.

i'd say lawler's record is a bit more impressive.

kang's beaten semenov and a slew of c&d level fighters. That's not too impressive to me.

[ilostmydog]

so i guess that makes 2 of the UFC's B-level fighters very impressive as well because Salaverry and Prangley have both taken down Semenov and Salaverry didn't even need to go to decision like Kang did. Other than Semenov there isn't really anyone worth a damn in that winning streak unless you count Keith Rockel as worth a damn.

Lawler's losses are to Tanner, Spratt and Diaz.
Kang's losses are to Miller, Doerkson, Marty Armendarez ????, joe slick and jacen flynn.

i'd say lawler's record is a bit more impressive.

kang's beaten semenov and a slew of c&d level fighters. That's not too impressive to me.

Just one question. Have you ever actually SEEN Semenov or Kang fight. Or are you just using the fight finder to form opinions?

[ACIDBATHBELFORT]

Whats bad is that right now the UFC isnt using a lot of fighters. So its tough to tell which MWs are actually still being used. They seem to be getting rid of a lot of talent to bring in TUF guys. As boring as Lindland is, he is certainly a top 5 MW. I wonder if Terrell will ever come back. Id like to see him again. I see Lawler and Kang in pretty much the same category. Id probably go with Kang though in a match up. I like Lawler, but he just hasnt ever learned anything about sub defense.

[ilostmydog]

I don't even think the divisions are that close. PRIDE by a landslide.

I have to disagree here. The divisions are extremely close IMO. I think PRIDE has a slight edge after the UFC decided to release Salaverry and Lindland, but it's still not a landslide by any means.

[sportsgenius86]

Just one question. Have you ever actually SEEN Semenov or Kang fight. Or are you just using the fight finder to form opinions?


i've seen both of them fight...and i dont think either of them could hang with Loiseau, Tanner, Franklin or Salaverry

[tripwire]

Kang lost to those guys a LONG time ago. He has like a 15 fight win streak. If you don't think a win over Andrei Semenov is impressive I pity you. Secondly, Robbie Lawler sucks and he's not in the UFC, he's in ICON.

Franklin's win list is very unimpressive. The only man of note that he has beaten is Evan Tanner. All the rest of the guys you listed are B-C class fighters not worth noting. Now compare that to the guys Hendo has beaten.(at 205 no less) There you go.

And Tanner and Marquardt don't classify on the same level as Hendo, Busta, amnd Filho. And if you don't think Ninja is not an automatic title contender, than I think that's sad.

I don't even think the divisions are that close. PRIDE by a landslide.

1st Lets not get started with win streaks. I am sure there are tons of fighters out there that are 15-0, 10-0 etc, who suck because they haven't fought anyone. And yes I still say Kang has yet to face an even B level fighter. I would barely place Semenov in PRIDE's C level. Hell the guy lost to a french dude in his last fight!! :redface: Semenov has NEVER beaten an even decent opponent. He DREW Kang and beat Curtis Stout (who hasn't?) and thats it. (and that was back in 2002) I think Kang has yet to be tested. I am not saying he isn't a good fighter there is just nothing to justify him being put on any pedestals because of his fight with Semenov or a win streak of 15 cans.

2nd I never said anything about Hendo not being an elite fighter. Hell I said it would be a great fight and one I would LOVE to see. I just don't think he would destroy Franklin by any means. The guy is a student of the game like no other. I think it would be a great fight.

I never said Tanner or Marquardt are in Hendo's or Bustamante's league or even Filho's. Here is my quote actually:
I think the UFC division DOMINATES the pride division with the exception of Hendo, Filho and possibly Bustamante.

And no I don't think Ninja is an automatic title contender, I never have been impressed with him. Just because he dropped down and won 1 fight doesn't mean he is going to be great at that weight. He won against someone I never had even heard of. In the 205 division he had some good fights but always was on the losing end. He never finished (or couldn't finish). I never saw him as being anything special. The best fight I ever saw him in was against Sperry but other than that he was un inspirational to me. The Shoji flying knee was nice, but Shoji sucks anyway.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on Ninja, I know alot of people like him I just don't see it happening.

[landhawk]

Pride's MW division is much steeper.

[tripwire]

Pride's MW division is much steeper.

Show me. Details please..

[landhawk]

Show me. Details please..
Gladly.

Hendo
Busta
Filho
Gono
Baroni
Ninja
Minowa
Kang
Suloev
Lister
Acacio
Misaki
Semenov
Chonan
R. Sakurai

vs

Franklin
Loiseau
Tanner
Marquardt
Horn
Leben
Dewees
Cote
Swick
Sell
Quarry
Terrell

And that's excluding Kondo and Sakuraba too.

Any questions?

[Tony Montana]

thanks for that listing landhawk. it's cear to me that there's no comparison. the UFC is 10x better :)

personally, I'd take Franklin, Tanner, Lindland, Terrell, Marquedt, Horn, Prangley (who you forgot) and Loiseau to beat every single guy in PRIDE's MW division. nuff said.

[landhawk]

thanks for that listing landhawk. it's cear to me that there's no comparison. the UFC is 10x better :)

personally, I'd take Franklin, Tanner, Lindland, Terrell, Marquedt, Horn, Prangley (who you forgot) and Loiseau to beat every single guy in PRIDE's MW division. nuff said.

That's rich.

I'd take Busta, Hendo, Filho, Ninja, Kang, and Gono to beat every single guy in the UFC MW division. Kondo would whoop them all as well if you want to include him. nuff said.

[claymore]

As shown above, Pride's division is much better. It also doesn't help for the UFC that half their 185 division is consisted of cans, gatekeepers, or loser TUF garbage.

It's understandable with Tony. He's a UFC lover and the MW/WW divisions are the only elements of positivity that a UFC fan can hang on to right now as the company becomes more of a ****hole with every PPV.

[cameronb]

thanks for that listing landhawk. it's cear to me that there's no comparison. the UFC is 10x better :)

personally, I'd take Franklin, Tanner, Lindland, Terrell, Marquedt, Horn, Prangley (who you forgot) and Loiseau to beat every single guy in PRIDE's MW division. nuff said.
lol i was thinking the same thing

[claymore]

lol i was thinking the same thing

I wouldn't expect much more from somebody who started watching MMA because of TUF. I'd bet that you haven't even seen half the Pride guys fight yet you still talk out your ass.

[robbypark]

thanks for that listing landhawk. it's cear to me that there's no comparison. the UFC is 10x better :)

personally, I'd take Franklin, Tanner, Lindland, Terrell, Marquedt, Horn, Prangley (who you forgot) and Loiseau to beat every single guy in PRIDE's MW division. nuff said.

Oh yeah!! Well I think Dan Henderson could beat every MW in the UFC at the same time while having his hands tied behind his back!!!!!! :)

Since when did this turn into an immature pissing contest?

Some think the UFC has a better MW division(like Tony, tripwire, Loot and cameron), and some think PRIDE has the better division(like myself, ilostmydog, landhawk, claymore, and nhbfan)

Don't you think it's time to let bygones be bygones?

[tripwire]

Well I actually make an attempt to talk about MMA without name calling and all the other little crap that goes on but it seems like no matter what board I go to every forum ends up that way.

My favorite is.. Well you must be a TUF fan and just started in MMA what do you know? Too funny.

[robbypark]

Just before we let things clear I want to point out that if you think Semenov is a C-Level fighter, than Dewees and Cote must be D-Level guys at best.

[nhbfan8080]

thanks for that listing landhawk. it's cear to me that there's no comparison. the UFC is 10x better :)

personally, I'd take Franklin, Tanner, Lindland, Terrell, Marquedt, Horn, Prangley (who you forgot) and Loiseau to beat every single guy in PRIDE's MW division. nuff said.

Bold words considering Bustamante submitted Lindland twice in one night, help from the referee notwithstanding.

And why even speak of Lindland? He is gone from the UFC. Dana prefers entertaining sluggers like Baroni and Riggs.

[Nice ol' Rat]

I'm a bit of a Pride 'hugger and I think the UFC MW division is better. Hendo is boringas hell and only wins via his patented Arona impersonation, or is it the other way around? Bustamante is ok, but not great, then the rest, meh.

Give me that UFC list any day in variety of talent and excitement.

[Serialkilla]

Despite all the good posting by everyone here about which Division blows which away...

I think they are very evenly matched up...

Slight Edge to UFC for me, but I can't complain if someone see's it close to Pride...

BUT this is no way shape or form a blow out either way.

[tupark]

Despite all the good posting by everyone here about which Division blows which away...

I think they are very evenly matched up...

Slight Edge to UFC for me, but I can't complain if someone see's it close to Pride...

BUT this is no way shape or form a blow out either way.

I have to agree with with you on this.

Is anyone even sure Terell is still in the UFC. I haven't seen him for a minute.

[Drunken Gamer]

Gladly.

Hendo
Busta
Filho
Gono
Baroni
Ninja
Minowa
Kang
Suloev
Lister
Acacio
Misaki
Semenov
Chonan
R. Sakurai

vs

Franklin
Loiseau
Tanner
Marquardt
Horn
Leben
Dewees
Cote
Swick
Sell
Quarry
Terrell

And that's excluding Kondo and Sakuraba too.

Any questions?


Nope! No questions at all! Pride blows the UFC away. Well done!

[Tony Montana]

Problem is, none of those PRIDE MWs have any big MW victories under their belt. Bustamente was the greatest at one point. But, after watching him against Nakamura I think age caught up with him. Then again, he looked great in Bushido the tournament. Then again, I don't know how credible his competition was there.

It's tough to judge Henderson because he's fought most of his career at LHW. His biggest wins at MW are over Chonan (who I'm not too sure about either anymore) and Newton (I think he received a BS decision).

On the other hand, all the UFC guys have beaten is each other. So I guess it's a tough comparison to make.

Personally, just looking at their skill level I think the UFC's MWs are far superior. That's just my opinion. I'll admit that every division except for MW and WW PRIDE smokes the UFC out of the water. They're not even in the same ballpark for HWs and their LW division is non-existent. Most of the best LHWs are in PRIDE although Tito coming back does help the UFC out a lot.

Some of you guys though just refuse to say anything negative about PRIDE.

[sportsgenius86]

overall division aside...The UFC has the fighter at this weight who is the most dominant. Franklin wouldn't be stopped by anyone in that division right now. Franklin is P4P #2 right behind fedor.

[Drunken Gamer]

overall division aside...The UFC has the fighter at this weight who is the most dominant. Franklin wouldn't be stopped by anyone in that division right now. Franklin is P4P #2 right behind fedor.


LMAO! You never fail to make me laugh with the dumb comments you throw out! :-D

[robbypark]

overall division aside...The UFC has the fighter at this weight who is the most dominant. Franklin wouldn't be stopped by anyone in that division right now. Franklin is P4P #2 right behind fedor.

I'm sorry, but this is a complete joke.

Rich Franklin isn't even in the top 10 P4P. Franklin's not even #1 in his own division. Dan Henderson is, and Hendo would literally destroy Franklin.

[Drunken Gamer]

I'm sorry, but this is a complete joke.

Rich Franklin isn't even in the top 10 P4P. Franklin's not even #1 in his own division. Dan Henderson is, and Hendo would literally destroy Franklin.


I am still laughing how he is saying that Franklin is behind Fedor as being the best pound for pound. Oh, the IGNORANCE!!!! What more can we expect from sportsdumbass???? :-D

[ncfa guy]

Terrell is still in the UFC as he has one more fight left on his contract. I talked to him a month ago, and he said he was fighting in february. His elbow injury is a lot better, and I see him at the 24 hour fitness near my house practically every day before he teaches ju jitsu at 6:30.

[makavelli]

overall division aside...The UFC has the fighter at this weight who is the most dominant. Franklin wouldn't be stopped by anyone in that division right now. Franklin is P4P #2 right behind fedor.

we have a winner for the "dumbest comment of the year award."

Did you start watching MMA because of the ultimate fighter because I think that show may have brainwashed you. Rich Franklin has beaten a grand total, of get ready for this now....................1 fighter in the top 10. Forget him being outside the top 10 P4P, he's not even top 15.

And as for the weight divisions they're close but Pride takes the cake.

[Loot]

Agh....I do not want to defend Franklin and have everyone think I am supporting the aforementioned comments, but in my opinion....

He is not as great as some people say he is here...

He is definitely not as bad as some of you say here....

[sportsgenius86]

we have a winner for the "dumbest comment of the year award."

Did you start watching MMA because of the ultimate fighter because I think that show may have brainwashed you. Rich Franklin has beaten a grand total, of get ready for this now....................1 fighter in the top 10. Forget him being outside the top 10 P4P, he's not even top 15.

And as for the weight divisions they're close but Pride takes the cake.

Well we'll see won't we. He absolutely demolished Evan Tanner. I think he's underrated by a lot of people. But everyone has their opinions. I mean Denis Kang isn't nearly impressive but one win over an overrated semenov can make him immortal on this board so at least I'm giving praise where it's due. I'm not brainwashed by the ultimate fighter. a lot of those guys from that show suck. Some of them have potential and some are pretty decent right now (stevenson, griffin, sanchez) but the majority of them suck. You're just quick to say that anything and everything attached to the ultimate fighter sucks tremendously without really thinking. Oh franklin fought at the first season finale so he's automatically overrated. You're the one making comments based on ultimate fighter biases. not me.

[nhbfan8080]

BJ Penn in his latest interview said Pride takes the 185 division.
Pride doesn't have a WW division so its unfair to compare UFC WW and Pride's LW since virtually all of Pride's LW division are 155 fighters.

[sportsgenius86]

BJ Penn in his latest interview said Pride takes the 185 division.
Pride doesn't have a WW division so its unfair to compare UFC WW and Pride's LW since virtually all of Pride's LW division are 155 fighters.


al gore says he invented the internet.....so what?

[ACIDBATHBELFORT]

Franklin doesnt seem to be getting much respect in here. Sure Hendo has a much better resume than Frankling, but I dont see Hendo running over Franklin like most here think. Franklin is too damn good for that. Im not sure who Id pick here and Im a Hendo fan. Franklin is going on me though, he is great for the sport. If Hendo moves back up to LHW like he has said, none of this matter anyway. Id love to see them two match up. On the other hand, in no way is Franklin number two P4P after Fedor. That spot goes to Gomi. Franklin is a top notch fighter who deserves recognition.

[cameronb]

I wouldn't expect much more from somebody who started watching MMA because of TUF. I'd bet that you haven't even seen half the Pride guys fight yet you still talk out your ass.
hahahaha you have no idea the first mma event i ever saw was ufc 19 in 1999 when i was 12 about the time pride was created, my favorite fighter ever is bas. im not going to insult you because it would make me look like you. people have a difference of opinion and on the tuf thing ive never watched an episode only the finale. ive also been a kickboxer since i was 10 and have then went to muay thai and am now working on my bjj not to ever even fight in one of the big shows just because im a fan of the sport. and if you want to talk the history of mma sometime send me a message

[cameronb]

Oh yeah!! Well I think Dan Henderson could beat every MW in the UFC at the same time while having his hands tied behind his back!!!!!! :)

Since when did this turn into an immature pissing contest?

Some think the UFC has a better MW division(like Tony, tripwire, Loot and cameron), and some think PRIDE has the better division(like myself, ilostmydog, landhawk, claymore, and nhbfan)

Don't you think it's time to let bygones be bygones?
well put robby we are all may have different opinions but we all love mma

[cameronb]

I am still laughing how he is saying that Franklin is behind Fedor as being the best pound for pound. Oh, the IGNORANCE!!!! What more can we expect from sportsdumbass???? :-D
gamer why dont you just stop posting you do nothing but piss everyone off and just make everyone dumber by reading your comments

[Loot]

Seriously, I am not picking on any one person here, because just about everyone seems to do it, but isn't the "you must be a TUF fan and don't know anything" crap getting to be extremely old and tiresome? It seems to be 1/2 of all insults here....

ANyways, like I said, Franklin does not get the respect he deserves...I do not even think he is at the top of his game right now, but he still would hold his own against ANYONE in his division...If any big fight happens in the next 2 years, I will gladly take Franklin...

[nhbfan8080]

Originally Posted by nhbfan8080
BJ Penn in his latest interview said Pride takes the 185 division.
Pride doesn't have a WW division so its unfair to compare UFC WW and Pride's LW since virtually all of Pride's LW division are 155 fighters.

al gore says he invented the internet.....so what?

?? Because BJ Penn is very highly regarded MMA competitor, beat UFC's best WW rather easily, fought in the division in question, has no reason to hype Pride (being a UFC fighter) and knows what he is talking about?

[sportsgenius86]

in retrospect gomi is ahead of franklin....but i would still put Franklin at #3

drunkengamer's gonna say what he's gonna say...i'll always win in the end though because i can go to bed at night knowing that i'm not a never was who's trying to make a name for himself by "punking" people on a message board....so i got that goin for me

[Drunken Gamer]

gamer why dont you just stop posting you do nothing but piss everyone off and just make everyone dumber by reading your comments


POT - KETTLE- BLACK :rolleyes:

[Drunken Gamer]

in retrospect gomi is ahead of franklin....but i would still put Franklin at #3

drunkengamer's gonna say what he's gonna say...i'll always win in the end though because i can go to bed at night knowing that i'm not a never was who's trying to make a name for himself by "punking" people on a message board....so i got that goin for me

I just laugh that you kiddies were asking me for autographs after a match......pathetic. :-D

[Drunken Gamer]

hahahaha you have no idea the first mma event i ever saw was ufc 19 in 1999 when i was 12 about the time pride was created

That makes you a noobie in my book. :-D

[sportsgenius86]

I just laugh that you kiddies were asking me for autographs after a match......pathetic. :-D


what are the odds that one of us were standing outside of the old American Legion Elks Lodge when you came out after your fight??

[robbypark]

in retrospect gomi is ahead of franklin....but i would still put Franklin at #3


1. Fedor
2. Gomi
3. Kid Yamamoto
4. BJ Penn
5. Matt Hughes
6. Mauricio Shogun
7. Ryoto Matsune
8. Alexandre Franca Nogueira
9. Tatsuya Kawajiri
10. Georges St. Pierre

I know we all have opinion, but to put Franklin in the top 5 is simply wrong. There is no basis to put him even in the top 10. As it was mentioned above, it is a FACT that Franklin has only beaten ONE top 10 fighter.

You claim you think he's underrated all you want, but in the end that's still just something that you think and not something that you know.

[ACIDBATHBELFORT]

Very good list Robby. I just cant see Shogun being that high. Yes he won the GP, but before that he wasnt a dominant fighter.

[robbypark]

Very good list Robby. I just cant see Shogun being that high. Yes he won the GP, but before that he wasnt a dominant fighter.

Good point on Shogun. You may be right that he has to be dropped a few notches.

[Loot]

Wow.....so 3 of the best P4P fighters in the WORLD are in the UFC's WW division?....

[robbypark]

Wow.....so 3 of the best P4P fighters in the WORLD are in the UFC's WW division?....

I think so.

[Loot]

I agree......I was confused for a second...I am over it now...

For the record, I am in the middle of the UFC/Pride WW division stuff....I saw I was thrown in with the UFC group before....I am kinda up in the air on it...I might be biased here because I would rather watch the UFC fighters fight (on average, not all of them), and I am a big Rich Franklin fan, so take my opinion with a grain of salt

[sportsgenius86]

I agree......I was confused for a second...I am over it now...

For the record, I am in the middle of the UFC/Pride WW division stuff....I saw I was thrown in with the UFC group before....I am kinda up in the air on it...I might be biased here because I would rather watch the UFC fighters fight (on average, not all of them), and I am a big Rich Franklin fan, so take my opinion with a grain of salt


do you mean you're in the middle of the UFC/Pride MW division stuff??

[robbypark]

do you mean you're in the middle of the UFC/Pride MW division stuff??

The 185 lbs division is called the Welterweight division in PRIDE.

[tripwire]

1. Fedor
2. Gomi
3. Kid Yamamoto
4. BJ Penn
5. Matt Hughes
6. Mauricio Shogun
7. Ryoto Matsune
8. Alexandre Franca Nogueira
9. Tatsuya Kawajiri
10. Georges St. Pierre


That is an interesting top 10. I would switch a few around but am not sure the Shooto fighter belongs there anymore after that July Spinning backfist loss.

This is my personal top 10:

1. Fedor
2. Yamamoto
3. Gomi
4. Hughes
5. Big Nog
6. GSP
7. BJ Penn
8. Shogun
9. Rich Franklin
10. Ryoto Machida - I would put him higher if he fought more.

I may be biased on Big Nog a bit, but he is still my favorite fighter and his only losses in the last 5 years have come to the machine Fedor.

[robbypark]

MAchida? For what? This is a heavyweight who'd only credible win was over Rich Franklin. After that he's got a split decision win over a pro wrestler and a decision win over a 180 lbs BJ Penn. Machida shouldn't be anywhere near a top 10 P4P list, especially when he's not ranked top 10 in any weight class.

Substitute Machida with Melendez, Matsune, Mamoru, Kawajiri, or Pequeno and it will look fine.

[Loot]

do you mean you're in the middle of the UFC/Pride MW division stuff??

Robby cleared this up, but it was originally what caused me to get mixed up for a second...

FOr a second I thought he was talking about Pride having better fighters than the UFCs WW division, then listing 3 UFC WW in the top 10....I started to post and it clicked, so I fixed it....

[sportsgenius86]

Robby cleared this up, but it was originally what caused me to get mixed up for a second...

FOr a second I thought he was talking about Pride having better fighters than the UFCs WW division, then listing 3 UFC WW in the top 10....I started to post and it clicked, so I fixed it....


after i posted that i looked it up and realized that that was probably the situation...

to clear things up is the 170lbs called Light Welterweight in pride??

[robbypark]

after i posted that i looked it up and realized that that was probably the situation...

to clear things up is the 170lbs called Light Welterweight in pride??

PRIDE doesn't have a 170lbs division.

[ilostmydog]

Pequeno is not Top 10 p4p. He's got great subs, and he does not let you slouch with him, but he's got average wrestling and anyone with decent standup skills can abuse him at will.

Ironically, Matsune just relinquished his Shooto title due to a knee injury.

[tripwire]

MAchida? For what? This is a heavyweight who'd only credible win was over Rich Franklin. After that he's got a split decision win over a pro wrestler and a decision win over a 180 lbs BJ Penn. Machida shouldn't be anywhere near a top 10 P4P list, especially when he's not ranked top 10 in any weight class.

Substitute Machida with Melendez, Matsune, Mamoru, Kawajiri, or Pequeno and it will look fine.

You are absolutely correct. I was wrong. I could have sworn he was a 185'r for some reason. I watched the fight against BJ Penn and he surely doesn't look like a HW. That was my bad.

I would replace Machida with Kawajiri most likely.

[nhbfan8080]

You are absolutely correct. I was wrong. I could have sworn he was a 185'r for some reason. I watched the fight against BJ Penn and he surely doesn't look like a HW. That was my bad.

I would replace Machida with Kawajiri most likely.

Well theres a good reason for it. Machida is a blown up 185'r and not a real HW.

[Solaris Flare]

I wish Machida would sign with Pride or the UFC. Then we could really see how good he is.

[cameronb]

I agree......I was confused for a second...I am over it now...

For the record, I am in the middle of the UFC/Pride WW division stuff....I saw I was thrown in with the UFC group before....I am kinda up in the air on it...I might be biased here because I would rather watch the UFC fighters fight (on average, not all of them), and I am a big Rich Franklin fan, so take my opinion with a grain of salt
yeah franklin is my favorite fighter and then gomi and fedor so its hard for me to say but i do believe franklin will prove himself when given the chance, good list robby but i think gsp is ahead of matt hughes because i think gsp does everything at an elite level, matt has improved his striking a great deal over the years but p4p gsp is top 7 to me

[tripwire]

I wish Machida would sign with Pride or the UFC. Then we could really see how good he is.

I agree. I have only seen that one fight againts BJ Penn. He doesn't fight enough either. 1 or 2 times a year it seems.

[Loot]

GSP cannot be a P4P better fighter than Hughes when he just lost ot him not too long ago.....If he proves himself in their rematch, then you hve a case, but it is not like he lost to him 5 years ago...

[cameronb]

GSP cannot be a P4P better fighter than Hughes when he just lost ot him not too long ago.....If he proves himself in their rematch, then you hve a case, but it is not like he lost to him 5 years ago...
i know a win is a win but i felt like gsp dominated that fight and he just got caught which i dont think will happen again but i cant wait till the rematch either way

[Loot]

Yea, I know what you mean.....like you said though, a win is a win....He got caught...to me, no diffrent then getting caught with a punch and Ko'ed...

I would love to see this fight again sometime soon.....

[ACIDBATHBELFORT]

In no way shape or form did GSP dominate Hughes. It was a great fight, that was pretty much a stalemate. Hughes took advantage of a mistake made by GSP.

[tupark]

In no way shape or form did GSP dominate Hughes. It was a great fight, that was pretty much a stalemate. Hughes took advantage of a mistake made by GSP.

I got to agree with you on this one. Its kinda like the same thing that happend with Hughes and Penn in regards to Hughes making a mistake and BJ taking advantage. Granted that fight was lopsided, but I think if Hughes doesnt screw that take down up its whole different fight. I still think that GSP deserves a rematch with Hughes before he has to fight Penn. Hughes and GSP totally dominate that division right now. I personally think its a waste of time for GSP to take on Penn because Ithink GSP is gonna give Penn a beatin'. Not to mention the fact that he's gotta be the #1 contender. Hughes was supposed to fight Karo last PPV, but look what GSP did to Karo.
I understand that Penn beat Hughes pretty handily, but he doesn't even deserve a shot at GSP because he hasn't fought in the UFC for a minute now.

[Tony Montana]

Terrell is still in the UFC as he has one more fight left on his contract. I talked to him a month ago, and he said he was fighting in february. His elbow injury is a lot better, and I see him at the 24 hour fitness near my house practically every day before he teaches ju jitsu at 6:30.

that's awesome! keep us posted wit anything you learn.

[Tony Montana]

I never understood the Henderson nuthugging. He's a good fighter of course but he's never done anything to merit being thought of as great. He's got a headbutt win over Bustamente. He's got a very controversial decision win over Kondo (which robby and many others here protested adamantly against). He's got a complete bull**** win over Carlos Newton in which he got knocked down senseless twice. He's been dominated by Silva and Lil Nog.

Franklin's dominated Tanner twice, dominated Jorge Riviera, made quick work of Marvin Eastman, defeated a good standup striker in Edwin Dewees and brutally KOed Nate Quarry.

Here's how I'd breakdown Hendo & Franklin's skills:

Hendo: excellent wrestler, good GnP, not a submission threat, questionable cardio, questionable committment to training (he admitted that he wasn't training and didn't know/care who Wanderlei was when they fought). Hendo has a big right hand but not much else in way of striking.

Franklin: excellent all around standup skills, very dangerous submissions artist, good wrestling skills, good in the clinch, good GnP with no real visible weakness.

I'd really be interested in hearing why all you guys say Franklin isn't that great. I'd also like to know why some of you believe Hendo is so great.

[Solaris Flare]

Right now I have Rich ahead of Dan in my rankings. Dan just has not done that much at 185. IMO, you have to rethink everything if Dan beats Busta on the new years event. That's a big win where Rich just came off KOing a TUF fighter. :rolleyes:

Both are good fighters and it's a shame that the chances they'll ever fight each other is pretty much 0%.

[robbypark]

Do I need to state this again?

Rich Franklin has beaten one top 10 fighter. Dan Henderson has beaten many top 10 fighters including top 10 205lbs fighters and heavyweights.

Dan is just simply the better fighter. Bustamante as well.

And Rich's striking is far from excellent. Who the hell has he ever outstruck that's actually a great striker? Oh yeah, he completely dominated Lyoto Machida on the feet. Err hey, wait a second............

[cameronb]

man i just got to thinking if we could see that, franklin fighting either hendo or bustamante i personally think franklin would win but either way it makes my mouth water just thinking about it

[robbypark]

Right now I have Rich ahead of Dan in my rankings. Dan just has not done that much at 185. IMO, you have to rethink everything if Dan beats Busta on the new years event. That's a big win where Rich just came off KOing a TUF fighter. :rolleyes:

Both are good fighters and it's a shame that the chances they'll ever fight each other is pretty much 0%.

Same with me. I also ranked Rich Franklin #1, but as you said, ONLY because Franklin has done more at 185. When you're talking about who would win in a fight though, you need to use all these other factors to formulate the verdict.

And if Hendo wins the title on NYE, he's definitely #1 for me.

[Drunken Gamer]

Do I need to state this again?

Rich Franklin has beaten one top 10 fighter. Dan Henderson has beaten many top 10 fighters including top 10 205lbs fighters and heavyweights.

Dan is just simply the better fighter. Bustamante as well.

And Rich's striking is far from excellent. Who the hell has he ever outstruck that's actually a great striker? Oh yeah, he completely dominated Lyoto Machida on the feet. Err hey, wait a second............

But Robby.....he looked really good at stand up on TUF.....LOL :-D

[tripwire]

But Robby.....he looked really good at stand up on TUF.....LOL :-D

Who said anything about TUF but you?

[JustSomeDude]

Personally, I'm not even all that interested in Chuck vs Randy 3. It really kills the anticipation that they're all buddy buddy all the time. I know it's a sport, but I get way more hyped when there's legit animosity. Example: Tito vs Chuck. Both were coming off loses, but everyone was dying to see that fight.

[cameronb]

Who said anything about TUF but you?
you beat me to it, i was looking around to see just what on earth he was talking about

[Drunken Gamer]

you beat me to it, i was looking around to see just what on earth he was talking about

No, I beat YOU guys to it. That was the response I was waiting for. Sheesh.....talk about being slooooooooow. :rolleyes:

[cameronb]

No, I beat YOU guys to it. That was the response I was waiting for. Sheesh.....talk about being slooooooooow. :rolleyes:
yeah gaymer you beat us all to it congrats for yet another comment that does nothing but make everyone realize were posting with a real life genius

[Drunken Gamer]

yeah gaymer you beat us all to it congrats for yet another comment that does nothing but make everyone realize were posting with a real life genius

LOL.......that is hilarious. Your grammar skills are very impressive......a real live genius, indeed! :-D

[PREDATOR]

just thought i throw this out there.

1. Rich Franklin
2. Dan Henderson
3. Matt Lindland
4. Murilo Bustamante
5. Anderson Silva
6. Evan Tanner
7. Paulo Filho
8. David Loiseau
9. Nathan Marquardt
10. Akihiro Gono

Phil Baroni- 20 Points, David Terrell- 6 Points, Ikuhisa Minowa- 3 Points, Ivan Salaverry- 3 Points


thats this sites rankings which was done a couple months back i believe. there are 4 top 10 mws (franklin, tanner, crow, nathan) from the ufc, 4 from pride (hendo, busta, filho, gono wtf? gono lol). Lindland isnt with the ufc right now and silva signed a contract with Rotc. other fighters with votes (baroni who may fight on both shows) terrell who is under contract with the ufc. minowa (pride) salaverry (still on ufc.tv roster and has a fight left on his contract i believe).

Fighters not mentioned from the ufc horn (whom many here were ranking at lhw after his fight with chuck) and prangley who is very underrated and whom i felt beat horn (im still bitter, i did lose money). I feel he should be in the top 10. horn is easily top 10 right now at mw.

fighters from pride not mentioned- ninja. ninja is a huge addition to the ww division in pride. hes a contender and has top 10 talent. chonan is solid. Is lister 185? acacio is solid as well. i feel they are top 20 talent though, cant make a good arguement for top 10.

with all this being said i feel that the ufc has the better division. Busta is also getting up there in age and i dont know how much he really has left. the ufc has some fighters who can be argued to be ranked top 10 (terrell, prangley, salaverry) that are not ranked right now.

ufc has the better 170 lb division, better 185 division.
pride has the better 205 division, hw divison and of course the lw division.

thread over :) just playing. keep it going guys

[Keso]

Oh yeah!! Well I think Dan Henderson could beat every MW in the UFC at the same time while having his hands tied behind his back!!!!!!

Since when did this turn into an immature pissing contest?

Some think the UFC has a better MW division(like Tony, tripwire, Loot and cameron), and some think PRIDE has the better division(like myself, ilostmydog, landhawk, claymore, and nhbfan)

Don't you think it's time to let bygones be bygones?



well put robby we are all may have different opinions but we all love mma

The problem is that on one side of the argument you have prolific crap-posters like sportsgenius, tripwire and Loot. The only poster with some respect on your side of the argument is Tony and we all know he is a UFC-hugger.
On the other side of the argument we have respected posters like DG, Robby and nhb.
With my limited knowledge and experience of MMA, if I ever found myself on the same side of an argument with bozos like sportsgenius I would have to rethink my position. :)

Still it would be boring if we all had the same opinion.
By the way what happened to dog and Win? Why did they get banned? I missed that part.

[Loot]

Prolific crap poster?........arent you the one who came here and placed me on ignore within your first 5 posts because you could not counter an argument? With any luck I am still there....

If you could get off of your knees for a second and read a few posts you would notice that this argument is about 50-50....look only to the post above yours to see a valid argument as to why the UFC has the better MW division....

But thanks for the unneeded insult in the post that added nothing and only gave you the chance to kiss some ass and insult a few people.....it really shows "who the prolific crap posters" are

[Keso]

Prolific crap poster?........arent you the one who came here and placed me on ignore within your first 5 posts because you could not counter an argument? With any luck I am still there....

If you could get off of your knees for a second and read a few posts you would notice that this argument is about 50-50....look only to the post above yours to see a valid argument as to why the UFC has the better MW division....

But thanks for the unneeded insult in the post that added nothing and only gave you the chance to kiss some ass and insult a few people.....it really shows "who the prolific crap posters" are

LOL!! I knew you'd bite. You're not on ignore anymore if that is what has got your knickers in a bunch. If I recall correctly we were having a discussion about ring vs. cage when you jumped in with arguments about knees vs. elbows and legal/illegal moves so far OT that it wasn't even funny.
But I forgive you for being stupid because that's just the kind of great guy I am. :-D

Edit:
Still seriously before you start to flame away. What happened to dog and Win? I missed the thread where that happened.

[sportsgenius86]

LOL!! I knew you'd bite. You're not on ignore anymore if that is what has got your knickers in a bunch. If I recall correctly we were having a discussion about ring vs. cage when you jumped in with arguments about knees vs. elbows and legal/illegal moves so far OT that it wasn't even funny.
But I forgive you for being stupid because that's just the kind of great guy I am. :-D

Edit:
Still seriously before you start to flame away. What happened to dog and Win? I missed the thread where that happened.


dog lost a bet in the boxing forum and won't be back until january i think...

dunno where win is

oh and you spew as much crap as anyone else around here

[Loot]

LOL!! I knew you'd bite. You're not on ignore anymore if that is what has got your knickers in a bunch. If I recall correctly we were having a discussion about ring vs. cage when you jumped in with arguments about knees vs. elbows and legal/illegal moves so far OT that it wasn't even funny.
But I forgive you for being stupid because that's just the kind of great guy I am. :-D

Edit:
Still seriously before you start to flame away. What happened to dog and Win? I missed the thread where that happened.

Ahh yes I remember...you lacked the ability to comprehend a few simple points that everyone else understood properly...I made the statement that the cage allows some people to gain an advantage because of thier fighting styles (wrestlers like couture), just as soccer kicks and stomps being allowed in Pride allow some strikers a unique advantage in certain positions because the rules play into their strengths...

In case you need to read it over again (which apparently is the case) here ya go..

http://mmafighting.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11446&page=6&pp=10&highlight=ring+cage

But you have pretty much been a dick since your first post, so trying to start **** for no reason other than to kiss a few mods asses doesnt seem out of character for you...

And you "knew I would bite?" Hmm....so you purposely make insulting comments about other posters here just to try and start up a flame war...Congradualtions, you are a certified **** starter...want a medal? I would not consider it a great achievement that you got a response after insulting someone who was not even involved in the thread that you insulted them in...But hey, that's me...

[Keso]

dog lost a bet in the boxing forum and won't be back until january i think...

dunno where win is

oh and you spew as much crap as anyone else around here

Thanks for the heads-up.
I checked out the thread and it seems we lost a dog and gained a Skinnyboy, not a good outcome if you ask me. But ahh..well, people should just chill a bit, too much testosterone + not wanting to loose face = bad outcome.
Back on-topic. Surprise ,surprise I think the UFC 57 fightcard sucks. I'll still be downloading it though.
Pride wins the 185s no question but Franklin might be underrated , atleast by me. Will he be fighting Tito? because that would be a good test.

[tripwire]

The problem is that on one side of the argument you have prolific crap-posters like sportsgenius, tripwire and Loot. The only poster with some respect on your side of the argument is Tony and we all know he is a UFC-hugger.
On the other side of the argument we have respected posters like DG, Robby and nhb.
With my limited knowledge and experience of MMA, if I ever found myself on the same side of an argument with bozos like sportsgenius I would have to rethink my position. :)

Still it would be boring if we all had the same opinion.
By the way what happened to dog and Win? Why did they get banned? I missed that part.

"Prolific crap poster"? And who are you again? Sad, you would think I would at least recognize your name. If you have made any serious contributions to the MMA community on this board I guess I must have missed it.

[WEREWOLF]

What a god-awful card with Chuck Liddell/Randy Couture 3 being the only A level fight. It's nice to see Mir back but the rest of the card is garbage.

[Loot]

I am interested in Chuck/Randy 3, and it will be nice to see Mir back, even if he is overrated. I also think babalu/Van Arsdale will be somehwat interesting....

[ilostmydog]

Thanks for the heads-up.
I checked out the thread and it seems we lost a dog and gained a Skinnyboy, not a good outcome if you ask me. But ahh..well, people should just chill a bit, too much testosterone + not wanting to loose face = bad outcome.
Back on-topic. Surprise ,surprise I think the UFC 57 fightcard sucks. I'll still be downloading it though.
Pride wins the 185s no question but Franklin might be underrated , atleast by me. Will he be fighting Tito? because that would be a good test.

You realize that Tito and Franklin are in different weight classes right? Or did you include Tito in the MW's when you compared Pride and UFC's divisions?

[Loot]

You realize that Tito and Franklin are in different weight classes right? Or did you include Tito in the MW's when you compared Pride and UFC's divisions?

I noticed that as well but did not want to start up another flame war....

My guess was that he was confusing Franklin and Forrest or something.....putting Tito in the MW division makes no sense either way when determining if he will fight Franklin. Neither of them are in Pride. Franklin has said time and time again he does not want to move up a weightclass, and Tito has his eyes set on Griffin/Couture/Liddell....

[Keso]

Sorry, I'm not that familiar with the ufc weight classes. Tito is going to fight Shamrock if I'm not mistaken and I remembered Shamrock fighting Franklin so thats why I asked.

[cameronb]

I am interested in Chuck/Randy 3, and it will be nice to see Mir back, even if he is overrated. I also think babalu/Van Arsdale will be somehwat interesting....
yeah i reallly think the babalu/van arsdale fight could be the best fight of the night

[Loot]

Tito is reportedly fighting Griffin, then Shamrock if I am correct...People speculate that f he wins both of those fights he will have a shot at the title.

Franklin moved up to fight Shamrock, then stated that he was moving back down to his normal weightclass. He has dominated it ever since and has beat Tanner to become the MW champ...

[cameronb]

Sorry, I'm not that familiar with the ufc weight classes. Tito is going to fight Shamrock if I'm not mistaken and I remembered Shamrock fighting Franklin so thats why I asked.
lets hope to god tito and shamrock dont fight again the first one was ugly and the second one would be worse

[Keso]

"Prolific crap poster"? And who are you again? Sad, you would think I would at least recognize your name. If you have made any serious contributions to the MMA community on this board I guess I must have missed it.

LOL, I understand why you would be upset with being called a prolific crap poster. You only have 451 posts since march and are not in the same league as Loot and the other prolific crap posters. I'll apologize for using the word "prolific" and settle for calling you a crap poster. You see.. I'm a nice guy and can apologize when I'm wrong :-D

[Loot]

lets hope to god tito and shamrock dont fight again the first one was ugly and the second one would be worse

Of course they are fighitng again....They are the coaches of TUF 3...thats the plan..

damn I type to fast and screw up every other word...oh well

Note to Keso: I have explained why I post so often....I spend half of the day sitting in front of a computer writing client reports and working on thesis/publications.....this is a great way to NOT do work....so if you consider that being a prolific crap poster, so be it....I may consider you a prolific asshole who apparently does not even know what weight division each fighter belongs in, but I do not go out of my way to point it out for no reason other than to start ****....

[tripwire]

LOL, I understand why you would be upset with being called a prolific crap poster. You only have 451 posts since march and are not in the same league as Loot and the other prolific crap posters. I'll apologize for using the word "prolific" and settle for calling you a crap poster. You see.. I'm a nice guy and can apologize when I'm wrong :-D

I post on all of the forums, not just MMA. Why does that make me a crap poster? Every one of my posts have value except the ones where I defend myself or choose to answer mindless butt cracks such as yourself.

451 posts since March 2005 equals one and a half posts a day. So I check the board’s daily, in ALL of the forums, is it really that big of a deal to you?

Come to think of it, you have 137 posts since August 2005, which gives you one post a day. So I am ½ of a post ahead of you daily. If that makes me a crap poster on ALL the boards, doesn’t that make you one as well? Especially if you only post on MMA boards, that would make you a much bigger crap poster than me correct?

[ilostmydog]

Is it just me, or should people who don't even know what the UFC's weight classes are be labeling others as 'crap posters?'

[Loot]

Is it just me, or should people who don't even know what the UFC's weight classes are be labeling others as 'crap posters?'

No, it's definitely not just you...

[peter-griffin]

i just want to see chuck vs randy babalu vs mike and the return of frank mir
the rest sucks. mike vs keith come on i hope they cancel this match