Takedown on Concrete?

[shizako]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pH8BTMmF9JQ&search=takedown%20defense - Just learning the game. I tried this on my kitchen and damn it hurt my knee if your trying to do it fast and with explosiveness. So I was trying to get your opinion on doing single and double leg takedowns on the street concrete or even in the UFC/Pride Ring. Doesnt that hurt the fighter's knees?

[Hitman]

Couldn't see your link, but will spew off anyway...

Any single or double that I have shot, the impact of your knees is the least of your worries..The essence of the move is to change levels, and to drive up and forward, -to capture the limb.
I think that if you are slow enough for you knees to actually smash into the ground on your shot, you're not going to make it.

[Vanno]

If you are doing the double optimally, you are landing with your chest on your opponents chest in cross side. Your knees shouldn't hit the ground. If you keep landing in your opponents guard, and knees first, you need to work on turning the corner, and lifting through your double. If you are talking about scrapping your knee on the shoot; I guess you have to take a little pain to give a little. If you are doing the double optimally, you are landing with your chest on your opponent’s chest in cross side. Your knees shouldn't hit the ground. If you keep landing in your opponents guard, and knees first, you need to work on turning the corner, and lifting through your double. If you are talking about scrapping your knee on the shoot; I guess you have to take a little pain to give a little.

[shizako]

Yea I was referring to dealing with how the knee hits the ground on the shoot. I assume the greatest amount of pain comes here becuase of the need for an explosive shoot. I guess I wasnt sure how those guys do it in the octagon for all 3 rounds without damaging their knees. Or heck who knows, maybe I was putting too much pressure on my knees(as they hit the ground) during the shoot.

[Raven]

Yea I was referring to dealing with how the knee hits the ground on the shoot. I assume the greatest amount of pain comes here becuase of the need for an explosive shoot. I guess I wasnt sure how those guys do it in the octagon for all 3 rounds without damaging their knees. Or heck who knows, maybe I was putting too much pressure on my knees(as they hit the ground) during the shoot.

If you change levels before you shoot, your knee shouldn't be hitting the ground very hard. Changing levels and shooting through your opponent means most of your momentum is going forward, not down, thus relieving pressure from your knee. Granted, it is still going to hit the ground, it won't be nearly as painful as if you just go straight down (which is a horrible idea anyway, terrible form).

My straight up suggestion would be just not to shoot during, say, a street fight, but that is another thread all together, so I won't go there.

[Vanno]

There isn't a whole lot you can do about the knee hitting the ground from time to time, just try to elongate your stride on the forward leg when you shoot. Some people are just squatty, and you have to get that low to shoot on them. Try to remember that you are driving forward with the shoot, not down and then forward. That should help a little. Also, I’d suggest shadow practice. Focus on barely gliding the knee against the ground and alternate lead legs as you go.

[Adept]

So I was trying to get your opinion on doing single and double leg takedowns on the street concrete or even in the UFC/Pride Ring. Doesnt that hurt the fighter's knees?

Hey Shizako,

Yeah man, the classic single and double leg takedowns are quite dangerous to your knees. Personally, I prefer takedowns from the clinch. If you mess up, you're not in any immediate danger. If you mess up on the shoot and the opponent sprawls on top of you, you're in a bad position. Also, clinch takedowns aren't as damaging as shoots. Oh yeah, and it's not as energy depriving, either. Now I"m not trying to take anything away from wrestling or anything, but if you're looking for a safer way of taking a guy down whether it's at the gym or on the streets, I highly recommend clinch takedown techniques. Good luck and have fun in either one you choose.

[Vanno]

I just now watched the link you posted, and those are horrible double legs, especially MMA double legs. First and foremost, you do not, for any reason to ever put your head on the outside of your opponent. You can get your head spiked on the ground, guillotined, and a whole host of other stuff. Ideally, you want to pretty much had butt the opponent on right in the sternum. Also, they drop the knee down the center of the body, and have the back leg flat, this is bad form. You want the front leg either flat, or knee down, and the back leg basically stiff and straight back. This makes it easy to escape if your shot is stuffed. From there, you want to try to bring the back leg up and around your opponent. All the footwork isn't as important as keeping the head inside, in my opinion though.

[themachine]

I prefer a good old shoulder or hip toss throw instead.

[Vanno]

^ Right, but that isn't what the thread is about. It is about the double leg.

[DOC_JJ]

I just now watched the link you posted, and those are horrible double legs, especially MMA double legs. First and foremost, you do not, for any reason to ever put your head on the outside of your opponent. You can get your head spiked on the ground, guillotined, and a whole host of other stuff. Ideally, you want to pretty much had butt the opponent on right in the sternum. Also, they drop the knee down the center of the body, and have the back leg flat, this is bad form. You want the front leg either flat, or knee down, and the back leg basically stiff and straight back. This makes it easy to escape if your shot is stuffed. From there, you want to try to bring the back leg up and around your opponent. All the footwork isn't as important as keeping the head inside, in my opinion though.

This is correct.

If you want to watch a video to learn a double leg, this is the one to learn it from. Emulate this double leg for MMA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3Sjq9XOIzA&search=frank%20shamrock

[mea140]

The technique of the double in the video is incorrect. He should be stepping thru his opponent. You will not get the takedown if you shoot like that and even my 5 year old would scolded for shooting like that.

[Iron Maiden]

If you're in a fight on the street,your adrenaline will be pumping so much that there is a good chance you won't feel any scrape to the knee anyway. You will later,but not then when it matters.

[Raven]

The technique of the double in the video is incorrect. He should be stepping thru his opponent. You will not get the takedown if you shoot like that and even my 5 year old would scolded for shooting like that.

I agree to an extent. Shooting through your opponent helps upset his positioning while shooting straight to his position allows him more of a window for takedown defense (sprawling, etc). The only downside is the difference between a wrestling match and a street fight. You have to be able to get close to your opponent while keeping good positioning yourself. This can be difficult due to his striking and otherwise (a wrestling match has no striking, so it is infinitely easier to get close enough to your opponent). My suggestion would be not to shoot unless he making a forward motion to you much like it shows in the video with the extended punch, but a standing charge (forward advance) will do as well.

Don't get me wrong - I do not doubt Shamrock's ability to demonstrate a good, effective, shoot. He's definitely earned the right. It's just a wrestling fundamental that you always shoot through, not to, your opponent.

[shizako]

Thanks for the vids and input. Another issue I had to mention was when doing any form of take down leaves the spine and back of your head open for attack on the streets. Is this a bad situation?

[Vanno]

Thanks for the vids and input. Another issue I had to mention was when doing any form of take down leaves the spine and back of your head open for attack on the streets. Is this a bad situation?

If you do as I said, and headbutt your opponents sternum on the shoot, they will be too off balanced to even consider trying, and wouldn't be able to get a decent shot anyway.