Bonds NL MVP

[jadakkiss81]

Barry Bonds won his 7th NL MVP award on Monday. Crushing a new record for most MVP Awards.
Cant wait to see everybody come up with the roids topic to bash Bonds. Accepted, Bonds is a great ball player and the reason that he hits all those homeruns is because he has a great swing and a good eye.

Start Roids threat here

[cardinals_82_85]

Overall, I like Bonds and generally agree that his numbers are due to his hitting abilities. However, very likely he's a steroid user, and it is arguable that he gains some advantage from using them. The fact that he denies using them makes it worse. I realize there is yet "smoking gun" proof of steroid use, but I think strong proof is inevitable.

[Iron Maiden]

Damn shame. Its sad we honor players who are fakes.

[sars]

this is bull****. Bonds should never win another award because every single one them is tainted.

[robbypark]

It's pathetic how a jacked up steroid freak like Bonds could still win the MVP even though we all know he's a roider.

[ACIDBATHBELFORT]

Blah, blah, blah......blah, blah, blah, blah...blah.....The best player won the award, its that simple.

[Iron Maiden]

The best artifical player won the award....indeed.

[forescore]

Blah, blah, blah......blah, blah, blah, blah...blah.....The best player won the award, its that simple.

HAHAHAHA!! I just spilt my coke reading that statement.

[ACIDBATHBELFORT]

If Bonds was a liked player, you guys wouldnt be bitching at all. I hate the saying, but it fits here. Dont hate the player, hate the game. Bonds isnt the only player juicing.

[themunchies]

He's the only player we know of that's juicing that has won significant awards and broken significant records due to his sterois use.

His homerun records and his MVP awards are a result of 75% steroids, 25% talent.

[ACIDBATHBELFORT]

Come on with all the masking agents, the majority of players are also juicing. Bonds is just magnified because of the media. PLus that he is disliked by the fans. Bonds was the best player before all the steroid scandles. Give him a break, the man has immense talent. Sure its sad that he is juicing. But thats just the day and age we live in now a days. This is far bigger than Barry.

[SanLuis97]

Come on with all the masking agents, the majority of players are also juicing. Bonds is just magnified because of the media. PLus that he is disliked by the fans. Bonds was the best player before all the steroid scandles. Give him a break, the man has immense talent. Sure its sad that he is juicing. But thats just the day and age we live in now a days. This is far bigger than Barry.

The majority? I doubt it. Maybe...20 percent. I doubt Pujols, Manny, Vladamir, Rolen, Thome, Berkman, Rodriguez, Beltran, Edmonds...are using any illegal substances, but Bonds' trainer has been implicated. I don't necessarily dislike Bonds, but I think he should come clean. He's hiding it because he knows it's against the rules.

[Brock8]

If Bonds was a liked player, you guys wouldnt be bitching at all. I hate the saying, but it fits here. Dont hate the player, hate the game. Bonds isnt the only player juicing.
I'd imagine the reason Bonds isn't a "liked player" is because fans perceive him as someone obviously breaking the rules. And thus, he's not a positive example for kids no matter how many HR he hits.

I think people will dislike any player they believe is cheating. Bonds is the only high-profile player I can think of who appears to be heavily juicing.
Jose Canseco doesn't count. A few years ago, Mark McGwire admitted using the legal-at-the-time substance Andro, but stopped, citing his responsibility as a role model to kids.

[ACIDBATHBELFORT]

McGwire just said the right thing. Ok, its a fact Bonds is juicing, I dont deny that one bit. If he is the only juicer then how come so many clean players are putting up more HR, RBI, etc than him?

[Brock8]

McGwire just said the right thing. Ok, its a fact Bonds is juicing, I dont deny that one bit. If he is the only juicer then how come so many clean players are putting up more HR, RBI, etc than him?
Bonds gets walked a record number of times, so that's one reason why others may have bigger stats. Also, Bonds is the sole offensive threat on his team, so that makes it easier to pitch around him. He gets fewer chances to actually hit.

[ACIDBATHBELFORT]

Analyze it how you want, but Bonds always drew a lot of walks. Grant it, not as much as he is now. Face it, Bonds has been the man and still is.

[Brock8]

He's NEVER, and no one is history has ever walked as much as Bonds did last season.

But you're right, he is an incredible force, and that's why people care. They don't want such historic records broken by a guy who seems to be openly violating the rules. Don't you think his use of banned, performance-enhancing drugs takes something away from it? It's natural people are going to dislike the guy.

And what other players do you suspect of juicing? You haven't named any. At least no other players' personal trainer faces federal charges--except Barry's.

[robbypark]

Before Bonds' started juicing, he was not the man. In fact, he was an above average player at best. He had some All-Star seasons but then really tapered off and hit only about 20-30 homeruns a year. And then he started jucing and that number rose dramatically.

As for the walks, that statement is just plain wrong. Bonds never got nearly the amount of walks in the past before he was a homerun threat, and the only reason he's such a big homerun threat is because he's on the juice.

And another reason everything thinks Bonds is juicing is because there is so much evidence against him! For Pujols, Vlad, etc., there is no evidence at all that they have ever been jucing.

[BruceLee]

Bonds talent is undeniable. Always has been a pure hitter, with great selectvity.

But I've always hated that loser. Who gets a Ferrari for his 16th birthday? Barry Bonds. The guys a spoiled brat born with a silver spoon in his mouth, who never learned how not to be selfish. Just ask Gary Sheffield.

Caminitti believed that 50-80% of baseball players we're on steroids. Of course he had roid psycological problems himself.

I'm still waiting for Jose Canseco's book. I've been waiting two years now. Is it ever gonna come out?

[ACIDBATHBELFORT]

Oh yeah Robby, Bonds was just above avg! Thats how come he has so many MVPs. Plus he was robbed of one years back. Players have alwasy looked for an advantage. Bonds is no different. And I think the steroid use is far too rampant, but Im looking at the whole picture not just through tunnel vision. You have people like A-Rod that hits over 50 HR every year. Bonds doesnt even do that.

[themunchies]

Oh yeah Robby, Bonds was just above avg! Thats how come he has so many MVPs. Plus he was robbed of one years back. Players have alwasy looked for an advantage. Bonds is no different. And I think the steroid use is far too rampant, but Im looking at the whole picture not just through tunnel vision. You have people like A-Rod that hits over 50 HR every year. Bonds doesnt even do that.

Do you realize the stupidity of your statement? First of all, A-ROD didn't even hit 40 homeruns this past year. Secondly, if Bonds had the same number of at bats as A-Rod he would hit 85 homeruns every year!!!

Why does he have 7 MVP's? Did you know that 4 of those MVP's come AFTER he used his roids and got his 73 homerun season?

Until Bonds started using, his average was low, his homeruns were low, his RBI's were low, and his stolen bases were high. You do the math!

[ACIDBATHBELFORT]

Why do you always have to resort to put downs. A-Rod, up until this season had been a perennial 50+ HR hitter.

[robbypark]

in a 10 year MLB career, Alex Rodriguez has reached the 50 HR plateau....................twice.

[SanLuis97]

Does Bonds' (suspected) steroid use take away from his accomplishments?
If it's true that 80 percent are using, then I guess it wouldn't, but I don't believe it's that high. If baseball players can get away with it in such an established and monitored sport that's in the public eye, then it must be ridiculously easy for MMA or K-1 competitors to use performance enhancing drugs or pain-numbing drugs.

[Iron Maiden]

Does Bonds' (suspected) steroid use take away from his accomplishments?

Yes,I believe it does. I look at it this way...

If I beat a very hard game without cheating,that makes it so,so sweet and worth feeling proud over.

If I use a God mode to beat it,SO WHAT? Anyone can use a God mode cheat and beat a game,the real talent lies in beating it without cheating.

[SanLuis97]

Yes,I believe it does. I look at it this way...

If I beat a very hard game without cheating,that makes it so,so sweet and worth feeling proud over.

If I use a God mode to beat it,SO WHAT? Anyone can use a God mode cheat and beat a game,the real talent lies in beating it without cheating.

I agree with that analogy 100 percent. However, I know some people would say that upper body strength isn't a major factor in hitting home runs, not to mention batting average. Bonds has won the batting title, I believe two years straight, and hitting for average isn't usually considered something that muscle improves. Ichiro won the AL batting title, right? Back to HRs, Jim Edmonds has hit 40+ a couple times, and I think his power is almost completely founded on the form and mechanics of his swing. He'd hit more if he was a more disciplined hitter, but I don't think added muscle would help.
I'm not anti-Bonds and definitely not pro-Bonds, I just wish baseball would take a stand, clean things up if needed, and at least break some ground on settling the issue.

[Iron Maiden]

I just wish baseball would take a stand, clean things up if needed, and at least break some ground on settling the issue.

Hey,I couldn't agree more. The MLB is a pathetic organization IMO. They let steroids go,they won't put in a salary cap,they are pussies plain and simple.

[robbypark]

Whoa, Bonds winning the battle title means pretty much nothing. The only reaosn Bonds' average is so high right now, is because the defense plays a right field shift on him due to his steroid-enhanced homerun power. All Bonds has to do is hit a ground ball to anywhere except right field and he almost always has a base hit.

Ichiro on the other hand is an excellent pure hitter.(unlike Bonds) He earns 100% of all his hits and he has the best bat control in the history of the game.

Please don't compare to two in terms of average because that would be disrespectful to Ichiro.

[SanLuis97]

Whoa, Bonds winning the battle title means pretty much nothing. The only reaosn Bonds' average is so high right now, is because the defense plays a right field shift on him due to his steroid-enhanced homerun power. All Bonds has to do is hit a ground ball to anywhere except right field and he almost always has a base hit.

Ichiro on the other hand is an excellent pure hitter.(unlike Bonds) He earns 100% of all his hits and he has the best bat control in the history of the game.

Please don't compare to two in terms of average because that would be disrespectful to Ichiro.

Please, that's not disrespectful to Ichiro. He'd be thrilled to be compared to Bonds. I realize you don't like him, (I'm not a fan either) but you don't win two batting titles and have a lifetime avg of .300 because of a shift.

Also, Ichiro does not have the best bat control in the history of the game. Come on, I appreciate your enthusiasm, but that's too sweeping of a pronouncement. Baseball's been around since about 1880, I don't think you can unilaterally claim Ichiro has the best bat control in history. You're probably to young to have seen most players. I'm too young myself, but I recall Rod Carew having great bat control, but I'm not qualified to say it's the best in history. Few people are.

[robbypark]

Please, that's not disrespectful to Ichiro. He'd be thrilled to be compared to Bonds. I realize you don't like him, (I'm not a fan either) but you don't win two batting titles and have a lifetime avg of .300 because of a shift.

Also, Ichiro does not have the best bat control in the history of the game. Come on, I appreciate your enthusiasm, but that's too sweeping of a pronouncement. Baseball's been around since about 1880, I don't think you can unilaterally claim Ichiro has the best bat control in history. You're probably to young to have seen most players. I'm too young myself, but I recall Rod Carew having great bat control, but I'm not qualified to say it's the best in history. Few people are.

Well let's see, Paul Moliter, Hank Aaron, and Willy Mays all say that Ichiro has the best bat control in the history of the game.

You don't.

Should I take your word or theirs?

[robbypark]

oh, and BTW, you just barely owned yourself. For an elite baseball player, a mere .300 lifetime average is pathetic.

[themunchies]

Please, that's not disrespectful to Ichiro. He'd be thrilled to be compared to Bonds.

BWAHAHAHAHA!!! Bonds couldn't hold Ichiro's jockstrap on his best day.

All of Ichiro's amazing accomplishments are done 100% natural unlike Barroid Bonds.

[SanLuis97]

oh, and BTW, you just barely owned yourself. For an elite baseball player, a mere .300 lifetime average is pathetic.

First off, stop with the superiority routine. You don't know as much as you think, and everybody on here knows that. Second, check your info before you go off.

PATHETIC? .300 lifetime avg is not pathetic. Do you know what you're talking about? For a power hitter, .300 is great.

Let's look. These guys are all Hall of Famers, and McGwire, will be.
So according to you, they're not elite, eh? Who should I believe, you or the Baseball Hall of Fame?

Hank Aaron .305; Mark McGwire .263; Mike Schmit .267; Willie Mayes .302; Reggie Jackson .262; Ernie Banks .274; Willie McCovey .270; Harmon Killebrew .256; Frank Robinson .294; Mickey Mantle .298; Willie Stargell .282

[Brock8]

First off, stop with the superiority routine. You don't know as much as you think, and everybody on here knows that. Second, check your info before you go off.

PATHETIC? .300 lifetime avg is not pathetic. Do you know what you're talking about? For a power hitter, .300 is great.

Let's look. These guys are all Hall of Famers, and McGwire, will be.
So according to you, they're not elite, eh? Who should I believe, you or the Baseball Hall of Fame?

Hank Aaron .305; Mark McGwire .263; Mike Schmit .267; Willie Mayes .302; Reggie Jackson .262; Ernie Banks .274; Willie McCovey .270; Harmon Killebrew .256; Frank Robinson .294; Mickey Mantle .298; Willie Stargell .282
Think he's got you there, Robby. But don't yell at me, I love Ichiro.:)

[robbypark]

First off, stop with the superiority routine. You don't know as much as you think, and everybody on here knows that. Second, check your info before you go off.

PATHETIC? .300 lifetime avg is not pathetic. Do you know what you're talking about? For a power hitter, .300 is great.

Let's look. These guys are all Hall of Famers, and McGwire, will be.
So according to you, they're not elite, eh? Who should I believe, you or the Baseball Hall of Fame?

Hank Aaron .305; Mark McGwire .263; Mike Schmit .267; Willie Mayes .302; Reggie Jackson .262; Ernie Banks .274; Willie McCovey .270; Harmon Killebrew .256; Frank Robinson .294; Mickey Mantle .298; Willie Stargell .282

For all those players you named, I could name twice as many hall of famers with averages far exceeding Bonds'.

Fact is, without Bonds' couple of big batting avg seasons due to his roids, his average wouldn't be that good at all.

Without roids, Bonds isn't nearly the player he is right now, and he's certainly not an MVP.

[themunchies]

^^^^ yep, right on the money.

Bonds is nothing but an artificial steroid freak. Before the roids his career was fast declining and his numbers weren't impressive at all. Now that he is on roids, his numbers obviously skyrocketed.

It's a shame that an obviously fake athlete can win an MVP award these days. And San Luis there's a huge difference between the guys you named and Bonds. The guys you named actually had talent without using drugs, unlike Barroid.

[SanLuis97]

For all those players you named, I could name twice as many hall of famers with averages far exceeding Bonds'.

Fact is, without Bonds' couple of big batting avg seasons due to his roids, his average wouldn't be that good at all.

Man, can't you just admit when you're wrong? How can the moderator lack such basic comprehension abilities? Forget Bonds, you made a big statement about how .300 was "pathetic" for elite players. Well, clearly you were wrong when there are plenty of elite players under .300. But instead of saying,
"All right, good job on that one." You come back with a whining,
"I could name twice as many Hall of Famers with averages far exceeding Bonds,'" which was never even the point.

[themunchies]

For an elite hall of fame hitter, a .300 avg isn't good at all. That's just the facts of life. The only reason guys with averages that low get into the hall are because of good defense or because they're homerun hitters.

[robbypark]

admit I'm wrong? Buddy, go get some air. The only one wrong here is you.

For a hall of fame player, a .300 career avg IS pathetic. That doesn't mean you can't be an elite player. Those names you mentioned, you never hear how great they were because of their batting avg now do you? For hall of famers, their batting average is pathetic, however their homerun totals, extra base hits, defence, and overall impact on the game is excellent. It still doesn't take away from the fact that .300 isn't good at all for a HOF player.

Let's get right back to the stem of the situation. Barry Bonds won the MVP because of steroids. He won the batting title because of steroids. He hit 73 homeruns because of steroids. He might break the all-time homerun record because steroids.

It's really as simple as that.

[SanLuis97]

^^^^ yep, right on the money.

Bonds is nothing but an artificial steroid freak. Before the roids his career was fast declining and his numbers weren't impressive at all. Now that he is on roids, his numbers obviously skyrocketed.

It's a shame that an obviously fake athlete can win an MVP award these days. And San Luis there's a huge difference between the guys you named and Bonds. The guys you named actually had talent without using drugs, unlike Barroid.

First, once again, I'm not a Bonds fan, but I prefer a thoughtful discussion that blurting out "Roid Freak!" or other assorted terms you use. In your hatred of him, which may be justified, you get some things wrong.

1. Bonds is talented, regardless of possible use. He's a first-rate athlete who won multiple Gold Gloves and can run. I don't think big muscles help for winning a Gold Glove.

2. His career was NEVER "declining." Look at his numbers. He hit stride in 1990, took off and never looked back. Check the stats.

3. I think it's wrong to use drugs because it's against the rules, and it equals cheating, whether or not it equals a competitive advantage, but it's baseball's management you should be most angry with; they're not enforcing the rules. And also the Player's Association, that doesn't want testing.

4. I'm not sold that drugs equal more home runs. I think hitting a home run has more to do with the form of your swing and pure hitting ability than brute strength. Similar to golf and tennis, where great players don't have great muscle mass.

Also, baseball has been in a "lively ball" period recently. Home runs are flying. Placido Polanco hit 17 this year, and he's 5'10 168. Carlos Beltran broke or tied Bonds' postseason record for home runs in half the games. Is Beltran using drugs? We won't know because there's no testing.

[SanLuis97]

admit I'm wrong? Buddy, go get some air. The only one wrong here is you.

For a hall of fame player, a .300 career avg IS pathetic. That doesn't mean you can't be an elite player. Those names you mentioned, you never hear how great they were because of their batting avg now do you? For hall of famers, their batting average is pathetic, however their homerun totals, extra base hits, defence, and overall impact on the game is excellent. It still doesn't take away from the fact that .300 isn't good at all for a HOF player.

Let's get right back to the stem of the situation. Barry Bonds won the MVP because of steroids. He won the batting title because of steroids. He hit 73 homeruns because of steroids. He might break the all-time homerun record because steroids.

It's really as simple as that.


You're the one who needs to come up for air. First off, batting average is often cited as the one of the most overrated stats. No professional player or any baseball writer would agree with you that .300 is pathetic for a Hall of Fame player. You're just wrong. You find me one player or sportwriter who says that--good luck. I'd bet the average BA of a hall of famer is between .285-.300. (and we're not counting pitchers, for the dim witted.)

[robbypark]

First, once again, I'm not a Bonds fan, but I prefer a thoughtful discussion that blurting out "Roid Freak!" or other assorted terms you use. In your hatred of him, which may be justified, you get some things wrong.

1. Bonds is talented, regardless of possible use. He's a first-rate athlete who won multiple Gold Gloves and can run. I don't think big muscles help for winning a Gold Glove.

2. His career was NEVER "declining." Look at his numbers. He hit is stride in 1990, took off and never looked back. Check the stats.

3. I think it's wrong to use drugs because it's against the rules, and it equals cheating, whether or not it equals a competitive advantage, but it's baseball's management you should be most angry with; they're not enforcing the rules. And also the Player's Association, that doesn't want testing.

4. I'm not sold that drugs equal more home runs. I think hitting a home run has more to do with the form of your swing and pure hitting ability than brute strength. Similar to golf and tennis, where great players don't have great muscle mass.

Also, baseball has been in a "lively ball" period recently. Home runs are flying. Placido Polanco hit 17 this year, and he's 5'10 168. Carlos Beltran broke or tied Bonds' postseason record for home runs in half the games. Is Beltran using drugs? We won't know because there's no testing.

oh, come on man!

Bonds won all his gold gloves and stole all his bases before the roids! Why do you think he's never won a Gold Glove after 1998? Why do you think he hasn't stolen more than 20 bases since 1998? Of course roids don't help speed and defensive performance! That's the point that's proven here!

And yes, his career started on the downfall the year before he's suspected of starting steroid use! Bonds is suspected of taking steroids starting in the 2000 season. In 1999, Bonds hit .262 with 34 homeruns.

The point is that there would be no steroid accusations against Bonds if there wasn't overwhelming evidence against it! Is there any evidence whatsoever that Beltran used roids? Nope. Is there ****loads of evidence that Bonds used roids? Hell Yes.

And yes, form has a lot to do with hitting a homerun but power is just as vital. It's further proven by the fact that players are constantly bulking up today in order to hit the long ball more often, thus resulting in more of an accumulation of total homeruns. But have you noticed that nobody has hit more than 50 homeruns in the last two years now?

[robbypark]

You're the one who needs to come up for air. First off, batting average is often cited as the one of the most overrated stats. No professional player or any baseball writer would agree with you that .300 is pathetic for a Hall of Fame player. You're just wrong. You find me one player or sportwriter who says that--good luck. I'd bet the average BA of a hall of famer is between .285-.300. (and we're not counting pitchers, for the dim witted.)

oh really, so now you speak for all the baseball writers right? Why don't you find me one sportswriter that says a .300 avg is "great" for a hall of fame calibur player?

And I'd bet you that the average BA of a hall of famer is between .300-310, which would make Bonds' below average in the Lifetime Batting Average department regarding HOF players.

Ok, maybe I went overboard when I said .300 is "pathetic" for a HOF player. However, you also cited it as "great" which it is from from. For an elite HOF player, .300 would be average at best.

[SanLuis97]

Good, I feel our discussion has become more tranquil.
I believe I said .300 was great for a "power hitter," and I'll stand by that. But you're right, a .300 lifetime avg for a pure hitter--guys like Williams, Musial, Carew, Boggs, Cobb, Brett, DiMaggio...wouldn't be great.

[robbypark]

fair enough.

Good discussion. You stand by your points and I stand by mine.

[SanLuis97]

"Bonds won all his gold gloves and stole all his bases before the roids! Why do you think he's never won a Gold Glove after 1998?"

Because he was getting older. Most guys win their Gold Gloves when they're relatively young.

"Why do you think he hasn't stolen more than 20 bases since 1998?"

Same as above, age, not to mention the fact that the number/importance of stolen bases has greatly diminished from the '80s and early '90s. There might not be another team like the '85 Cardinals. They stole over 300 bases.

"Of course roids don't help speed and defensive performance! That's the point that's proven here!"

I don't know. Supposedly lots of football players use roids, and it does help their speed. Tony Manderich (sp) was a physical speciment out of college. He had power and amazing speed for an offensive lineman--like a 4.7 40, I think, and he was all about roids.

"And yes, his career started on the downfall the year before he's suspected of starting steroid use! Bonds is suspected of taking steroids starting in the 2000 season. In 1999, Bonds hit .262 with 34 homeruns."

You may be right that this is when he started taking them, but the reason his numbers were down is because he only played in 102 games. 34 HRs in 102 games is NOT declining.

"The point is that there would be no steroid accusations against Bonds if there wasn't overwhelming evidence against it! Is there any evidence whatsoever that Beltran used roids? Nope. Is there ****loads of evidence that Bonds used roids? Hell Yes."

I think he's probably using, too, but as far as I know there's only circumstancial evidence, which isn't enough to convict a man.

"And yes, form has a lot to do with hitting a homerun but power is just as vital. It's further proven by the fact that players are constantly bulking up today in order to hit the long ball more often, thus resulting in more of an accumulation of total homeruns."

Well, that's solid. Strength certainly helps a little, but I'd say it comes well after form, technique and patience.

"But have you noticed that nobody has hit more than 50 homeruns in the last two years now?"

All right, but homers per game have increased slightly.
Homers Per Game: 2004 1.123; 2003 1.071; 2002 1.043 (ESPN.com)

[ACIDBATHBELFORT]

I guess you proved me wrong there Robby, I really thought A-Rod had more 50+ seasons. Im not a huge baseball fan, the last few years I mostly keep up with the scores and highlights on ESPN. I much prefer the faster paced college game. Go LSU! Anyways, steroids does enhance speed. That why Ben Johnson of Canada was stripped of his gold medal in 1988. This year there was a lot of steroid talk with US track stars.

[DaBigHurt]

"Bonds won all his gold gloves and stole all his bases before the roids! Why do you think he's never won a Gold Glove after 1998?"

Because he was getting older. Most guys win their Gold Gloves when they're relatively young.

"Why do you think he hasn't stolen more than 20 bases since 1998?"

Same as above, age.....

So let me get this straight, You think Bonds hasnt won a gold glove after 98 was because he was getting old, and never stole more than 20 after 98 for the same reason: AGE. And yet his homeruns INCREASE unexplainably after the 98 season based on "pure" talent which he never had before when he was in his physical best? I guess he got old for everything else except hitting homeruns.:rolleyes:

[DaBigHurt]

..But I guess this argument is VOID now that we all know he used steroids.